Electric Cars: The reality

[TexasSP]

Oh I read it, I just thought it was not very clear or forthcoming. I also put the electric only vehicle part in there because most don't know it isn't a pure electric vehicle because that's the way GM is touting it. Very misconceiving information from GM in my opinion, but no surprise.

Again the idea of solar panels and wind generators for everyone is interesting, but they have an environment impact and cost to produce. Have you ever priced putting enough solar panels on your house to power it completely? Or enough wind generators to power it completely? There are also some major environmental impacts of wind farms that many proponents don't want to admit. Not to mention the shear amount of land it would take to replace one average coal or oil burning plant with a wind power.

We seriously need to take a better look back at nuclear. It is the only real available option we have right now that can be implemented right now. It also is not the same as the nuclear of yesteryear. Does this mean we stop looking for newer and more efficient forms of energy? Of course not, but why not use what we have now until we come up with the better form. We also need to quit trying to make fuel out of our food supply, it's not efficient when considering how much land is needed for it to be a real viable option and it's driving up other costs astronomically. In 2000 you could buy 10-12 ears of corn for a dollar most days and many sales put it at up to 20 ears for a dollar. Now a sale is 2 ears for a dollar and in some states it is as high as 2 dollars for one ear. This also means the cost of all corn based products is up. This is anything made with corn flower, corn syrup, corn meal, corn starch, and so on. Check it out, corn is in everything from dog food to soda. You also have many farmers switching to corn now because they make more off the crop than other crops and in turn this is drastically reducing land used to grow other crops. This in turn is driving up the prices on all of the other crops as well. It's not sustainable and is a major underlying issue within the economic crisis right now.

I want an electric car for sure, but I want it done right and I want accurate information to the public about it. GM now being Government Motors I think the chances of them having accurate information is pretty much nonexistent.

[JThiessen]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

We seriously need to take a better look back at nuclear. .......... We also need to quit trying to make fuel out of our food supply, it's not efficient when considering how much land is needed for it to be a real viable option and it's driving up other costs astronomically. In 2000 you could buy 10-12 ears of corn for a dollar most days and many sales put it at up to 20 ears for a dollar. Now a sale is 2 ears for a dollar and in some states it is as high as 2 dollars for one ear. This also means the cost of all corn based products is up. This is anything made with corn flower, corn syrup, corn meal, corn starch, and so on. Check it out, corn is in everything from dog food to soda. You also have many farmers switching to corn now because they make more off the crop than other crops and in turn this is drastically reducing land used to grow other crops. This in turn is driving up the prices on all of the other crops as well. It's not sustainable and is a major underlying issue within the economic crisis right now.

I fully agree with you on the nuclear power. I worked at the site in Idaho about 20 years ago, and even back then they had the technology to make it safe.

I dont necessarily agree with you that the effects of using food sources for fuel is bad. For many years the govt was paying farmers to leave their fields barren due in a large part to our surplus of food. Yes, it raised your cost of food, but IMHO, its about damn time. Farmers have been getting screwed for 40 years due to the regulations and "farm programs" - I dont know any other commodity or job that pays the exact same today as it did 40 years ago. The processors and distributors of the grain(s) made all the profit, virtually eliminating the "small farmer", then these same companies bought up a vast majority of the land, and are now running the industry. We;ve been too used to low priced ag products (similar to our fuel). Speaking of fuel, a large part of your increase in price on products was also due to the fuel price spike. But watch, you'll see the price of corn, wheat, barley drop now, but you wont see a decrease in the store. Guess who's keeping the money - not the farmers....
Yes, I'm a little biased, as my family runs a "small" farm - but they were just large enough to make it.

[Finnster]

I see your point vis a vis electric car vs hybrid. It may be more accurate to call it a plug in hybrid vs electric only, altho I would imagine 90%+ of its intended use would be all elec. This is contrasted to the prius and such that just uses a electric booster motor to the ICE. I'm not real up on all the designs, but if the ICE is solely used as a generator for back-up power, rather than direct drive, I'm not so sure its fair to call it a hybrid either. IDK.


RE: Alt fuels & Biofuels:

I agree that using food products for fuel source material is stupid, however, biofuels are still have lots of potential. What is really needed is more reasearch and investment to make cellulosic ethanol conversion inexpensive and scalable.

My bro in law is a Prof of ChemE at UMass-Amherst. His collegue actually was featured in last month's Scientic American (much to my bro's chagrin lol) as he's been working on some novel methods to breakdown cellulose for biomass conversion and has had some good sucess so far.

Layman's Cliffs on Cellulose: Cellulose is basically a hardy sugar molecule comprised of smaller digestable sugar such as sucrose (ie table sugar.) Cellulose can be broken down into its component sugars, which can easily be fermented into ethanol or other liquid fuels. The trick is breaking down cellulose in an efficient way, as well as dealing with other fibers and other cellulose-like molecules & structures that make up plant materials (obviously, as wood and plants are very durable materials.)

Using corn kernals is a cheap and half-assed way to make ethanol as the sugars are already in more digestable forms. If we can solve the latter, than a whole range of previously unusable material can be used for fuel sources, such as grass clippings, farm waste (ie corn stalks, which are just burned now, not the edible parts) paper waste, etc etc etc.
When I was an undergrad and I met my wife, we were working in a lab that was trying to do this conversion enzymatically w. various genetically engineered organisms, but was running into trouble finding suitable enzymes that were conducive to scale-up as well as not easily inhibited by various pollutants you would see in non-pure stock materials. That was a while ago, and its been really interesting to see the attention and funding that is starting to availble for this. when we were working on it, there was no money for any of this stuff, and it was very crippling. The research $ now is still a pitance compared to many other things, but its really grown in the last 5 yrs. So much that now my bro constantly chides my wife for not completing her PhD in this, and is himself thinking of moving away from his cancer research to explore this (now there is the research $ cash cow.)

Its not a pancea, I don't think any one non-petroleum source is, but there are a lot of things (nat gas, nuke, wind, solar, etc) we can do to improve our fuel sources away from foriegn oil and all the problems that come with its sole dependence.

[lutach]

I have a few contacts at the DOE and will soon prepare some paperwork for them to see. If I do get funds for my full size electrics cars, this is my plan: A race car, a sport car with at least 1000 mile range and a family car with a range that a few of my engineer friends are trying to get an exact number for. I already have sourced all the sppliers for the above cars.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by lutach

I have a few contacts at the DOE and will soon prepare some paperwork for them to see. If I do get funds for my full size electrics cars, this is my plan: A race car, a sport car with at least 1000 mile range and a family car with a range that a few of my engineer friends are trying to get an exact number for. I already have sourced all the sppliers for the above cars.

Cool, let's get some vids of some standing back flips too!
;)

g/l :)

[lutach]

Originally Posted by Finnster

Cool, let's get some vids of some standing back flips too!
;)

g/l :)

I'll let you test that one out .

[Finnster]

Make an electric one of these and I'll do it.

[lutach]

Originally Posted by Finnster

Make an electric one of these and I'll do it.

If there's a logic behind it and enough $$$$ to spare, I'll do it . It will always come down to how much $$$$$ is available.

[redshift]

Originally Posted by Metallover

With modded diesel cars you can get 65+ and apparently people are pushing 80 from little tdi's. Diesel is a great fuel; gets 30% better economy then gasoline. 50% of European cars are diesel. You can't buy a single fuel efficient car in america compared to those europeans...

RIGHT. And that should be proof enough for most people that, at least in the West, there is a stranglehold on new technologies.

Yes Virginia there really is a conspiracy.

Another good example of that would be the Tucker, you get squashed if you are not a "frat boy".

I'm starting to really think we need a third option, if there is one. I have no real opinion on the nuclear alternative, if it can truly be done safely and cleanly......

And I echo what ZP said about the mfr's going FAR out of their way to make the electrics as unappealing as possible. I remember seeing an electrified VW Rabbit at the Ontario Science Centre (was about 1977) and the poor thing was loaded with lead-acid batteries to the point that they encroached significantly into the passenger area, and the performance must have been absolutely pathetic. that was 30+ years ago, and I can't really say much has improved in that time. And I believe that is because of constant hindrance by third parties, to say the least.

And look at the average vehicle mileage since the 70's, we are talking about miniscule improvements in the numbers.

We need other options, and no, I'm not talking about a commercially produced Flintstone-mobile either, but yes electrics are the best stop-gap alternative at the moment IMO.

[TexasSP]

JThiessen, I am sorry if I sounded like I was coming down on farmers as that was not my intention. I am pro-farmer, it runs in my family as well.

I have no belief in any real conspiracy theory as I do not subscribe to such things. Tucker is an interesting example, but do a real study of the man (beyond the Hollywood movie) and you will see he was quite an eccentric and had ways of his own of turning people off from him. He had great ideas no doubt and the big 3 were not friendly to him, but the story is much deeper.

Finnster, thanks for your input, I really liked getting the information. I had a guy that worked for me who insisted that corn was a complete waste for making ethanol alluding to some of the things you brought up. He kept bringing up sugar beets as a much better option as the yield per acre was many fold over what corn provides. I would also like to see some long term studies of the real effects of ethanol use. I have concerns over the "it's better because it's better" line you get from many.

I just don't have high hopes in the end for GM's new volt. I think there are some better and more promising technologies out there. This is one reason am not a fan of the government bolstering GM and Chrysler up with so much money. Allowing the market to rid itself of what is old and outdated is what allows the market to truly thrive. Who knows what kind of venture could arise from the ashes of GM and provide for our future.

Of course I am just not a fan of big goverment at all, no matter which party is holding the reigns. I am for the market determining the market, not the government.

[redshift]

Tex wrote:

"I have no belief in any real conspiracy theory as I do not subscribe to such things."

That's fine, and I'm not asking you or anyone else to. But keep in mind a conpiracy only constitutes 2 or more parties.. is that really beyond the realm of possibility?

People have a tendency to write things off, out-of-hand, but I like the old saying "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater".

And I think Metallover has the right idea, this stuff has to be DIY, unless we want to wait for the next Ice Age for the mfr's to do it for us.

[JThiessen]

Anybody have the theme to X-files handy?!?!?!?

More often than not, conspiracy theories (I KNOW I spelled that wrong) are people's means of explaining things they do not, can not, or refuse to understand. I listen to NASCAR talk radio on SIRIUS, and it always amazes me how many people truely believe that NASCAR itself is manipulating the race finishes and personnell.

Tex, no offense taken in the least, and I was merely putting my opinion on that matter out there. Now that I live in the city, it always amazes me how many very smart people dont understand the ag to store process, and think farmers are out there getting rich.

[redshift]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

Anybody have the theme to X-files handy?!?!?!?

More often than not, conspiracy theories (I KNOW I spelled that wrong) are people's means of explaining things they do not, can not, or refuse to understand.

The truth is out there

Not to be a richard JT, but I'll turn that quote right around... more often than not, not believing in any conspiracy are people's means of explaining away things they do not, can not, or refuse to understand.

For the record, I'm not a UFO chaser...

But I don't engage in group-think either.

Just my opinion guys

[redshift]

Originally Posted by lutach

I have a few contacts at the DOE and will soon prepare some paperwork for them to see. If I do get funds for my full size electrics cars, this is my plan: A race car, a sport car with at least 1000 mile range and a family car with a range that a few of my engineer friends are trying to get an exact number for. I already have sourced all the sppliers for the above cars.

That sounds awesome.

With my limited background in any of the above mentioned fields, the best I could come up with would be something that used the 1.21 jigawatt packs ZP talked about, and use geothermal or wave driven generation.

I feel very strongly we need to abandon the idea of 'generating' anything, and focus on harnessing what energy already exists in various forms.

Hey, if we're gonna do this, let's not do it halfassed right?

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

Now that I live in the city, it always amazes me how many very smart people dont understand the ag to store process, and think farmers are out there getting rich.

That's the truth. I grew up with my dad having a cattle ranch as a side business of sorts. About 200-250 head usually. Being both in the city and country and different times growing up, I got doses of both sides. Early in my adult life I was a butcher for four years, it always amazed me how truly clueless people were about where their food came from. My favorite is how many people would complain about the "red water" in the meat packages and how they did not want it there. When I explained it was blood they would then proceed to ask me why we put it there. Or the old man that would always accuse us of covering up the "brown" ground beef with "red" ground beef. I and others tried to explain the oxygenation process of meat and blood turning red but it failed to make a dent.