New Arizona SB1070 Law

[PBO]

Welfare is a right for tax payers, a safety net for those that may fall on hard times...it's like drawing down payments for all the hard work you've put in first

No free rides in Australia, if you are able to work & your payments are getting long in the tooth you get to work for it...

http://www.centrelink.gov.au/interne.../work_dole.htm

[TexasSP]

Sounds like a woman that worked for the company I was at a few years back. She always complained she didn't have money to cloth her children yet drove a new expedition with 22's, TV's, and loaded out. She also had designer clothes and the latest cell phone. She opted out of the company health insurance and used the local "free" hospitals. Translation free to mean tax payer supported.

[BrianG]

I didn't even think of that! I was too pissed off for rational thought to be honest.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by BrianG

I didn't even think of that! I was too pissed off for rational thought to be honest.

Just think of it. There are like 11million illegals in the US right now(that are recognized) and more than likely all of them are doing the exact same thing. yet Congress says that they are not the reason our medical system is struggling. How educated do you have to be to see what is going on here? You are correct. If we just remove the reasons that they are coming here, then most likely they will stop stealing their way into our country. BUT with over 11million of them already here we have to round them up and get them out in order to make a dent in this problem. Letting them stay here is just worng. Not doing anything to resolve this is criminal, and wearing our financial system down. Soon there will be nothing left to fight for. If you put this population problem on a map and looked at it like a medical desease. It would look much like a cancer patient being over run by bad cells destroying their body from the inside out. If a cure is not found soon the desease will kill us.

[Finnster]

As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.

I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like.
Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue.

IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico.

Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.)
Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force.

OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs.


I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents.


My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest.
My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is.
Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that.

Long post, but my opinions boil down to this:

-We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs.

-Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone.

-Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap.

-I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real.

-Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck.

- End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here.
In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by Finnster

As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.

I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like. That would be the person who cannot provide some kind of proper ID. What I cannot belive is that anyone can find a problem with that. Show your ID and move on. Simple as that.Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue.

IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico. This is not just about Mexico. It is about anyone who is in the USA without following the simple immigration process that is set in place just like every other country does.
Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.)
Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force. And as long as any immigrant follows the worker program that is great. That is why the program was setup in the first place. Mute argument.

OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs. The shame of this is that when immigration started way back when the arriving visitors were thrilled and honored to have the chance to learn English and live our way of life. Now they just want to turn it into their way of life from the country they came from. If you were to immigrate to lets say South America, wouldn't you want to learn their ways and blend in to their culture the best way that you can?

I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents.


My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest. And you know what that is great. Having them here to do the work you say Americans do not want to is OK with me, but why not go through the legal process and arrive here legally the way it is supposed to be? No free medical, no handouts, and they follow the same laws that all of us are required to.

My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is. That happens with people from all walks of life so that argument does not fly either. That problem exist around the world over.

Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that. Immigrants can have the same opportunities as long as they are willing to follow the immigration laws and enter our country legally.
Long post, but my opinions boil down to this:

-We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs.

-Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone.

-Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap.

-I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real. Post whatever flag you wish as long as it is not flown over the USA flag. EIther have pride that you have become a citizen of the USA or leave.


-Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck.

- End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here.
In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time.

Now that is exactly what the problem is with our country. People who have the opinion and way of thinking that says lets just turn our back and not see what is really going on. It wont hurt me, because I am not doing any of the illegal stuff myself. Its always been that way so why change it right? Thats why we are so inferior in manufacturing to other countries, because too many of our leaders are willing to look teh other way or be bought off instead of doing what is morally right teh way our fore fathers did. No one wants to get his hands dirty cleaning up the crap and making things better. Lets just sit back and let it work itself out. Great policy. Way to use that first class education you received. What kind of future do you see for yourself with that attitude?Amazing.

[BrianG]

Some material for your viewing pleasure. The following links are ~11 min parts of a single video. So, grab a chair and listen if you like:

Vid 1 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvsDR...layer_embedded

Vid 2 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfTOe...layer_embedded

Vid 3 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b19zM...layer_embedded

Vid 4 of 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JUk...layer_embedded

[zeropointbug]

I think everyone is watching too much FOX news (or similar)... there is no terrorist boogie men that want to take your freedom away. JERRY, sounds like you are really convinced they are out to get you.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

I think everyone is watching too much FOX news (or similar)... there is no terrorist boogie men that want to take your freedom away. JERRY, sounds like you are really convinced they are out to get you.

Obviously you really do live in your own little world don't you? Just to make myself clear. I am a Federal Investigator and I work for one of the US Gov agencies all over the world. If you really think there are no terrorists already living in the US, or that they do not want to hurt Americans then you truly have no idea what is going on around you. Wake up and smell the fertalizer. These people want only one thing, and that is every living human being dead who is not part of their beliefs. We are their number one target, and you can bet your sweet freedoms that they are scheming every single day to hit us where it hurts. They do not discriminate against men, women, or children and they do not care who gets hurt in their wake of destruction. Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, or whatever other channel you wish to believe in does not really matter, because all of them are reporting the same thing from different angles, and that is that these people mean business no matter what you want to see on TV from your own perspective. That is what frustrates the young men and women in our own military is people like you who have no incling of how their efforts protect you and your freedoms from the terror that is out there trying to get to you and our American way of life. I guess you won't really wake up until they are standing in your living room with a machette at your throat. Open your eyes grass hopper. The world is in chaos and the bad is winning.

[PBO]

Originally Posted by JERRY2KONE

Obviously you really do live in your own little world don't you? Just to make myself clear. I am a Federal Investigator and I work for one of the US Gov agencies all over the world. If you really think there are no terrorists already living in the US, or that they do not want to hurt Americans then you truly have no idea what is going on around you. Wake up and smell the fertalizer.

As in Timothy McVeigh? he was a home grown terrorist, who loved his country but hated the gouvernance

Originally Posted by JERRY2KONE

These people want only one thing, and that is every living human being dead who is not part of their beliefs. We are their number one target, and you can bet your sweet freedoms that they are scheming every single day to hit us where it hurts. They do not discriminate against men, women, or children and they do not care who gets hurt in their wake of destruction. Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, or whatever other channel you wish to believe in does not really matter, because all of them are reporting the same thing from different angles, and that is that these people mean business no matter what you want to see on TV from your own perspective. That is what frustrates the young men and women in our own military is people like you who have no incling of how their efforts protect you and your freedoms from the terror that is out there trying to get to you and our American way of life. I guess you won't really wake up until they are standing in your living room with a machette at your throat. Open your eyes grass hopper. The world is in chaos and the bad is winning.

Don't you think you're over simplifying things just a tad Jerry...who is good & evil? The history of the US shows that it's just as likely to be from within as external

If you think about what drives people to extreme acts, it's often not what seems the best fit, it may be a variety of reasons. It might be because the isolated, persecuted, ignored etc...like McVeigh

[pinkpanda3310]

Originally Posted by PBO

As in Timothy McVeigh? he was a home grown terrorist, who loved his country but hated the gouvernance



Don't you think you're over simplifying things just a tad Jerry...who is good & evil? The history of the US shows that it's just as likely to be from within as external

If you think about what drives people to extreme acts, it's often not what seems the best fit, it may be a variety of reasons. It might be because the isolated, persecuted, ignored etc...like McVeigh

You understand Jerry's point but, yeh? If you sit back like a lazy beatnik and just let it happen, then you get what you deserve.

When a dog does something out of line you reprimand it fast and firmly (swift kick in the guts usually works), no difference in my mind.

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by JERRY2KONE

Obviously you really do live in your own little world don't you? Just to make myself clear. I am a Federal Investigator and I work for one of the US Gov agencies all over the world. If you really think there are no terrorists already living in the US, or that they do not want to hurt Americans then you truly have no idea what is going on around you. Wake up and smell the fertalizer. These people want only one thing, and that is every living human being dead who is not part of their beliefs. We are their number one target, and you can bet your sweet freedoms that they are scheming every single day to hit us where it hurts. They do not discriminate against men, women, or children and they do not care who gets hurt in their wake of destruction. Fox, CNN, NBC, CBS, or whatever other channel you wish to believe in does not really matter, because all of them are reporting the same thing from different angles, and that is that these people mean business no matter what you want to see on TV from your own perspective. That is what frustrates the young men and women in our own military is people like you who have no incling of how their efforts protect you and your freedoms from the terror that is out there trying to get to you and our American way of life. I guess you won't really wake up until they are standing in your living room with a machette at your throat. Open your eyes grass hopper. The world is in chaos and the bad is winning.

Jerry, you are clearly very brain washed, you are living in a box in your mind that your own GOVERNMENT, NOT terrorists, created. Don't be so bloody naive for thinking some diaper heads from some distant land want to kill you... all you have to do is look at your own life... who starts all the wars? Who created a false/fake monetary system to enslave the people? Who carries out false flag operations on their own soil and blames it on the 'terrorists'? Who wants to constantly spoon feed you $#!% food? Who wants to stick you with a needle every chance they get with toxic crap? Who wants to gladly sell you drugs that are known to cause millions of deaths each year and declare the beneficial herbs (Cannabis) ILLEGAL? Who wants to then profit off of the health problems and death caused by said food and medicine? Who went in to many many foreign countries sold them GMO crop seeds saying they are "magic seeds", then while their crops completely failed, destroying the soil along with it, the IMF and World Bank come in quietly saying "oh, too bad, we will help you, give you a bit of money, GMO food, medicines, vaccines, all you have to do is sign this contract with us so we can destroy your country"? Who is it that will tax you, tax your horse, tax your land, tax your house, tax your food, tax your livelihood, tax your etc, etc, etc? Who does that? Who are the people who claim their country has ALL the freedom in the world and say they have a democracy, then go into other countries, free countries, and wipe out their government, create war and hardship and famine? Who creates corporations, and industrial corporations creating needless jobs to feed other needless jobs, meanwhile polluting the air, soil, and water of the earth? Military-Industrial complex anyone? Who sets up a fake stock market with imaginary numbers with imaginary ups and downs, and meanwhile behind the scenes pulling strings, manipulating it, pulling out before said drop happens, putting 'shorts' on a drop before it drops (Goldman Sachs put shorts on the Gulg oil spill, made 100's millions)......

What do YOU think is the root problem to the issues of the world? Tell me, who does these things Jerry? You say you are a US Investigator? I say you don't know anything. That's not my opinion, that is the truth.

[BrianG]

A wall is like a locked door; it only keeps the honest people honest. If someone wants in they will get in, period. Better to eliminate the reasons they want to come here in the first place.

[Finnster]

Don't worry Jerry, your not going to offend me w/ opinions. Essentially I approach this problem as a pragmatist and am skeptical of the idological BS that seems to frame political issues these days.

I do absolutely agree that there is a problem w/ uncontrolled immigration and lack of coherent Federal policy, and states like AZ bear the brunt of it. I grew up in CO, so we had our fair share of illegals too. I also strongly agree there should be a low tolerance to criminality for any guests in this country. There are far too many hardworking and motivated people who would love to come here to tolerate anyone's bull$hit.
However, not only do I think this law will do much to stop II, I do fundamentally disagree with the notion that we should be making laws that everyone needs to carry gov't papers with them at all times, and that is a crime to not seem American enough if you get caught w/o your papers. Yeah I'm white, so even tho AZ promises there will be no racial profiling, everyone is going along w/ it with the implicit guarantee that the LEOs are only going to be after brown people. The AZ gov basically admits it by omission.

My cousin in Utah is married to a Bolivian, who is a citizen and is earning a law degree, and if they visit AZ, and if he decides he's going to take a walk in the park or go for a hike with his girls and he doesn't bring his wallet, my cousin shouldn't be getting a phone call from an INS detention facility that her family got arrested bc Dad still speaks with an accent and his english is still a bit rough. That's just F'd up and I don't care who you are.

Also, I work in the science field and we manufacture medical devices. I do think America is very skilled at manufacturing. We have European (or better) level of quality for much less expensive. The products China build are cheaper, but far inferior in quality and trustworthiness. We lose out on the low end as sometimes crappy is good enough.

However, on the high end, what I am not seeing is many Americans with the skills and education to do the technical jobs. Just in my area I work with people (scientists/engineers) from China, India, Nigeria, Kenya, Sudan, Poland, Russia, Czech R., Philippenes, Pakistan, Greece, UK, Hiati, Dom Rep, Puerto Rico, Costa Rica, Brazil, Camaroon, to name a few. I'm not sure Americans are even the majority.
My brother in law is a Chem E professor and its a similar story. Few qualified American graduate students to choose from, so the dept accepts many students from India and China with the neccessary background and accomplishment.
Nursing school is another good example of this.

So the question I ask, why are all these Americans out protesting and complaining about Mexicans coming and stealing their shitty jobs digging ditches for $8/hr? If your job is easily replacable by an illiterate from a 3rd world country, then you need to get your ass back to school and get a better education because there are thousands of high paying jobs going to legal H1 visa holders who have little American competition. Its rather pathetic actually given the opportunity citizens are born into here.

I also think low wage Mexicans/etc also contribute alot to American business competitiveness. I think the nation could do a lot more "low end" manufacturing combining American management techniques, innovation, and solid infrastructure with low wage guest workers to keep labor costs low, thus prices low, to compete better with crappy Chinese goods. Alot of other things need to happen too, but we also have to get over the xenophobia and start looking at the business opportunities. IMO, the Mexican infracture is too poor and the govt too corrupt to effectively utilize their low wage resource. We can take advantage of that for everyone's benefit.

If in the end we send a portion of this prosperity back to Mexico to build that country, enlarge the middle class, are create a larger consumer economy for American goods, all the better for us. The future prosperity for America is not going to be built on protectionism and low skill jobs for lazy & lowly educated natives. The world is catching up and we need to work harder and be smarter if we want to keep the privledges we have.

[lutach]

Finnster nailed it. Like I said in my posts, a lot of people are not pointing the finger at the source of the problem. I can guarantee, if the US Gov, gives the so called Illegal some sort of Tax I.D. Number like many Brasilians I know have, they would have to pay their taxes like everyone else. If they don't follow through, legal actions should be taken afterwards. I just hope the Mexican Gov. doesn't close down all the US or other foreign factories and/or companies in Mexico. Think about it now, Castle has a manufacturing place in Mexico. If that happens there, you will know other countries will probably do the same which is not good for any of us here in the USA.