New Arizona SB1070 Law

[BrianG]

I didn't even think of that! I was too pissed off for rational thought to be honest.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by BrianG

I didn't even think of that! I was too pissed off for rational thought to be honest.

Just think of it. There are like 11million illegals in the US right now(that are recognized) and more than likely all of them are doing the exact same thing. yet Congress says that they are not the reason our medical system is struggling. How educated do you have to be to see what is going on here? You are correct. If we just remove the reasons that they are coming here, then most likely they will stop stealing their way into our country. BUT with over 11million of them already here we have to round them up and get them out in order to make a dent in this problem. Letting them stay here is just worng. Not doing anything to resolve this is criminal, and wearing our financial system down. Soon there will be nothing left to fight for. If you put this population problem on a map and looked at it like a medical desease. It would look much like a cancer patient being over run by bad cells destroying their body from the inside out. If a cure is not found soon the desease will kill us.

[Finnster]

As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.

I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like.
Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue.

IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico.

Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.)
Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force.

OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs.


I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents.


My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest.
My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is.
Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that.

Long post, but my opinions boil down to this:

-We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs.

-Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone.

-Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap.

-I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real.

-Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck.

- End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here.
In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time.

[JERRY2KONE]

Originally Posted by Finnster

As the saying goes, the problem with pointing your finger is that you have three pointing backing at you.

I can understand AZ's frustration when you have some 600K+ illegals in a state of 6-7M, a completely porous border, and a Federal response that has been completely lacking for a decade. That said, I think their law is a bad option pulled from a hat only having bad and worse options. Mandating a gov't LEO (law enforc. officer) can apply an arbitrarily "Americanness test" and arrest anyone who isn't carrying gov't papers seems about as un-American as a law can get, and a huge expansion of gov't powers. Especially when the Gov who signed it doesn't even have the balls to say what a "real American" vs an illegal even looks like. That would be the person who cannot provide some kind of proper ID. What I cannot belive is that anyone can find a problem with that. Show your ID and move on. Simple as that.Overall their law represents the national failure to properly deal with the issue.

IMO, the nation is schizophrenic to its immigration towards Mexico. This is not just about Mexico. It is about anyone who is in the USA without following the simple immigration process that is set in place just like every other country does.
Fact is we need that source of cheap labor to provide the economic competitiveness and std of living we all enjoy. Illegal numbers peaked at the same time unemployment was 5-6% (nearly full employment) which proves the demand in the economy for more laborers. Mex labors get a source of jobs and cash which is sent home to help build their country (a net good thing for US.)
Business groups the marketplace has very much welcomed this labor force. And as long as any immigrant follows the worker program that is great. That is why the program was setup in the first place. Mute argument.

OTOH, we want them to come here, work all the shit jobs for pennies, and then go back to their apartments and stay invisible people. Don't be seen in public, we don't want to hear your language, hear your music, or be exposed to or inconvenienced by your culture. We don't want people, we want ghosts. We want all the benefits, w/o the tradeoffs. The shame of this is that when immigration started way back when the arriving visitors were thrilled and honored to have the chance to learn English and live our way of life. Now they just want to turn it into their way of life from the country they came from. If you were to immigrate to lets say South America, wouldn't you want to learn their ways and blend in to their culture the best way that you can?

I don't hate on the Mexicans who come here to work. I actually have a lot of respect for them. They are willing to venture off away from their families, pay hard-earned money to smugglers, risk death crossing deserts all for the chance to come to a foreign place who is hostile to them, to work grueling 4-50+hr/wk jobs chopping up dead animals, or picking vegetables in the blazing sun, cleaning garbage, digging ditches and the other dangerous and disgusting jobs they come here to do for very little pay. They then go home to cramped apts they share with other workers, and send much of the earnings home to support their wives, kids and parents.


My cousin owns a large landscaping company, and my mom's cousin owns a med-large commercial orchard and farm, both in Colorado. They try to hire legals as best they can determine, but most workers are Mexican regardless. These guys kick ass. I've seen the machismos get into races laying sod, so much they were running with two 40lb logs of sod on their shoulders in 100F+ heat until the entire truck is empty. They then brag who laid the most and fastest. And you know what that is great. Having them here to do the work you say Americans do not want to is OK with me, but why not go through the legal process and arrive here legally the way it is supposed to be? No free medical, no handouts, and they follow the same laws that all of us are required to.

My cousin will hire white guys or whoever, but they never last. (Face it, if you are easily replaced by a guy who speaks no english and has a 5th grade education, you have not taken much advantage of this country's world class educational system to make yourself a more valuable worker.) The gringos who do get hired, usually dirtbags who can't get a better job, are often late to work, slow, constantly complain and want to take breaks, want more money 3 days after they have started, and sometimes don't ever show up to work. Its rare to find one who isn't useless or doesn't quit the first day after he finds out how hard the job is. That happens with people from all walks of life so that argument does not fly either. That problem exist around the world over.

Pay more for Americans? How much would you have to pay to find someone who would put up with a back breaking job like that? No, Americans who are hard-working and motivated get educations so they can work in skilled trades or professional jobs in air conditioned offices with extended eat out lunches on Fridays so they don't have to do shit like that. Immigrants can have the same opportunities as long as they are willing to follow the immigration laws and enter our country legally.
Long post, but my opinions boil down to this:

-We need these people in our economy, else decide we are going to pay much more for less and have our products (incl Ag products) less competitive overseas due to increased labor costs.

-Form an immigration policy that has some roots in economic reality and can actually control the flow. The Guest Worker program Bush proposed may would have been one of his few not-terrible ideas. Whatever works for everyone.

-Guest workers should be mostly limited to unskilled labor. Don't destroy middle class skilled jobs by letting illiterate workers who don't understand codes just come in and slop crap together for cheap.

-I don't care who has what flag on their car. If we are going to ban Mex flags, lets ban Italian flags and Puerto Rican flags too. They are everywhere here. Seen Jersey Shore? Yes, the guidos are real. Post whatever flag you wish as long as it is not flown over the USA flag. EIther have pride that you have become a citizen of the USA or leave.


-Building a fence to solve the problem will be as effective as building a Bat Signal, but will waste a lot more money. Sure, may slow and push some routes out of cities and into the rural areas, but it will not stop anything. The Gaza border is less than 40 miles, and Isreal/Egypt can't even stop them from building tunnels large enough to import cars thru. US-Mexico is 2000 miles though mountains and deserts. Good F'ing luck.

- End/re-think The Drug War. Drug smuggling, mafias and criminality get all mixed into the economic migration. Mex cartels get most of their money (billions) from selling weed to us. They use the money to corrupt the gov't, impoverish the country, and ensure a permanent 3rd world status. We've spent $1T on the drug war, and all its bought us the worlds largest prison population and higher rates of drug use than ever. Even just de-crim/legalizing weed would largely defund the cartels and reduce our wasted tax $ here.
In the end, immigration will always be a strong force as long as Mex is a poor, horribly corrupt, crime-infested country with little opportunity and people wanting to flee. Imagine the strength of the continent if we had a country as modern and industrialized as Canada on both our borders. It can happen in time.

Now that is exactly what the problem is with our country. People who have the opinion and way of thinking that says lets just turn our back and not see what is really going on. It wont hurt me, because I am not doing any of the illegal stuff myself. Its always been that way so why change it right? Thats why we are so inferior in manufacturing to other countries, because too many of our leaders are willing to look teh other way or be bought off instead of doing what is morally right teh way our fore fathers did. No one wants to get his hands dirty cleaning up the crap and making things better. Lets just sit back and let it work itself out. Great policy. Way to use that first class education you received. What kind of future do you see for yourself with that attitude?Amazing.