BigSquid 4S LiPo Shootout

[DrKnow65]

Off topic: yes, 2lbs of 4s lipos in parallel with a MMM/1518. A very heavy buggy :-) but the idea is to switch over to 8s 5000mah when the Mamba XL HV hits the shelves.

I may pick up a few 4s 2650mah turnigy nanotechs for racing later on.

[thzero]

Suicide, you made the front page...

http://www.bigsquidrc.com/ask-cub-re...010/#more-7766

[brushlessboy16]

Yay Neil! guy is full of crap though.. They want to know the best pack... Well the turnigy is still the lowest rated pack not rocket science to figure that it will be the lowest performance pack.

[Finnster]

Originally Posted by thzero

Suicide, you made the front page...

http://www.bigsquidrc.com/ask-cub-re...010/#more-7766

Hahaha.. maybe Neil has a future as an American diplomat. I look forward to future leaked cables on Neil's thoughts of what a drunk the president of Nigeria is, how many hookers the Italian PM visits or what a small peen the president of Iran has. :) Comedy gold.


The response was pretty weak IMO:

BigSquid has an enormous reader base because we cater to the non-hard core types, the guys that simply want to know which of these packs will make their car run the longest.

Points Manufacturer/Battery Capacity
1 Checkpoint 5400 5340 mah
2 Thunder Power 5300 5305 mah
3 ACE 5000 5050 mah
4 Venom 5000 5001 mah
5 Turnigy 4500 4580 mah

Seems like a NSS moment. "Hey the biggest battery has the longest runtime."
Come' on Neil, only hard-core guys would know that without being told. Stop being such an elitist.

[sikeston34m]

Originally Posted by thzero

Suicide, you made the front page...

http://www.bigsquidrc.com/ask-cub-re...010/#more-7766

[suicideneil]

I responded:

I’ll address your response to my email.

"This 4S Lipo shootout was done specifically to show where you gain (or lose) performance in batteries of different capacities and “C” ratings."

Really, I don’t recall that being mentioned during the shootout even once. What I do recall is you stating you asked manufacturers to provide some packs that you thought 'would perform well in our tests'. If the purpose of the test was to determine how well different spec packs perform in the same tests, then you should have stuck to one brand and tested different spec packs from their range to find the point at which a higher spec doesn’t yield better performance.

"Alas, we have already done a shootout like that, just look back at our Lipo Shootout 2 if you want to see packs of similar capacities go at it head to head."

Yep, I saw those tests and also pointed out to one of your team how pretty much useless those tests were too ( bit of a pattern emerging here... )

"We do our shootouts based on what the readers want. The bulk of the emails looking for the next shootout were requesting we do a best of 4S, and that’s exactly what we did."

Uh-hu. I think you misinterpreted what the word 'best' means in that case. Your readers asked for a test to compare the best 4s lipo packs to see which actually performed well and which were over rated/ over priced, instead what you gave them was a test on a random assortment of packs of varying spec/ quality; that’s not testing the best is it? No, and nor did it help them to decide how to spend their money with comments such as ”The Turnigy was the lightest of all the packs tested, making it a good choice for some applications. We didn’t have any problems with the Turnigy, it didn’t overheat during any of our testing, but it was down on raw power compared to the rest of the field.” Like I said before, you cant compare a 40c 4500mah pack to a 65c 5300mah pack and then complain the lower spec pack didnt have as much punch- that’s sheer naivety of the highest level.

"So why would our readers even want to see batteries of different capacities battle each other? Well, have you ever seen a track that ONLY allowed 4S 5000 mah “40C” packs to race? Ever see a bash spot that only allowed 4S 4500 mah “20C” packs? No you haven’t, nor have I. The bulk of our readers walk in to a hobby shop and see a vast array of capacities and “C” ratings, they simply want to know what the highs and lows of each pack are, and more importantly, which one is the best for their individual needs."

Oh me, oh my. Please refer to my earlier point about different spec packs being tested against each other to determine the point at which you don’t gain any performance from using a higher rated pack. Your observation that there is a vast array of specifications to choose from is entirely valid, but it doesn’t take into account how people should choose which specification to opt for; like I said before, you cant compare a 65c 5300mah pack against a 40c 4500mah pack and declare 'the TP pack am bestest'- it simply doesn’t work like that. If you want to show readers which brand is best then compare the same or very similar packs from different manufacturers. If you want to show readers which spec is best value for money then compare different spec packs from the same manufacturer, or a range of specs from different manufacturers & arrange the results into league tables for each spec. Once again you fail to exercise common sense and logic in your testing methodology.

"At the end of the day, just like the masses, we at BigSquid drive our cars/trucks, and don’t care what the sticker says, we care more about having longer run times, higher top speeds, with more power than the next guy."

Well no kidding, of course people will use different spec packs in their trucks against each other whilst racing or bashing; point being that serious racers tend not to use $50 lipos and expect top-end performance, hence why most racers opt for the likes of Hyperion or Thunderpower packs- the crème de la crème. Bashers like myself however aren’t so much bothered by blistering performance and lasting the whole 20 minutes of the A-main final, so I’m more than happy to use cheaper packs so long as they aren’t overpriced and over-spec'd. Oh yes, it does matter whether you are getting ripped off- we really should care about what it says on the label even if we are buying cheaper packs for bashing purposes. Maximum runtime for bashing is a bit of a spurious requirement however, since it is nearly always much more economical ( logical too ) to buy a couple 5000mah packs say, vs a single 8000mah pack- you will get greater 'runtime' by simply swapping over packs vs running the truck non-stop for the whole bashing session; many guys I talk to state that they get bored ( or cold, especially at this time of year ) if running continuously for such long times, or they find that their motor and/or esc is on the verge of going into meltdown because they neglected to check temps during their run- a very important thing to do as it happens.

"Capacity- Neil would liked to have seen the pack that went over it’s rated capacity the most be declared the winner, but the masses want to know which one simply has the longest runtime, so that’s how we gave out the win in that category. BigSquid has an enormous reader base because we cater to the non-hard core types, the guys that simply want to know which of these packs will make their car run the longest. Fortunately for everyone, we listed and posted a graph of the results of our capacity test, so anyone can look at that info to determine a “winner” with whatever criteria you care to use."

The masses cant surely me that ignorant to basic math & reading/reasoning ability surely? The pack with the longest runtime is the pack that has the highest capacity, since all other things being equal ( or not- you see my point by now hopefully ) mah capacity = runtime, simple as. I cant possibly believe anyone over the age of about ~5 years old couldn’t work out that a 1ltr jug of milks gives you more to drink vs a 500ml jug of milk; this is common sense and math at its most basic level. My word....

"If the QC stinks on capacity, it’s going to stink on other performance parameters as well."


Says you. If you want to determine whether a company has poor quality control regards discharge rating & mah capacity, you should get a sample of cells from the same vendor ( of identical listed specs ) and carry out all your tests again on each cell, then plot the results to see if the cells give the same or very similar performance, or whether they vary quite widely. Otherwise, idle speculation and insinuations should be avoided if I were you..

"In the previous two shootouts we had trucks set-up for higher top speeds to really differentiate the packs, but in the last shootout we took a different approach using a buggy set-up for standard track racing as a change of pace just to see what the differences might be. This lower load resulted in all the packs being bunched tightly together. The TP was able to nudge out one extra mph, a very impressive achievement indeed considering how the test was set-up."

Your previous test made much more sense n that it was able to differentiate between good and mediocre packs; your last test made little sense as there was no way to tell the men from the biys as it were- the load on the packs was simply insufficient and all the packs were able to provide the current output that was demanded from them. A 1mph difference is almost laughable and not outside the relms for the margin of error your equipment may produce. I would strongly suggest a higher load through gearing, or test smaller capacity packs so that the resulting discharge rate is much higher relative to their output potential; eg a 30amp load on a 6000mah cell is only 5c, where as a 30amp load on a 2000mah cell is 15c; big difference. All things being equal, the results you get testing the smaller packs should scale more or less perfectly meaning that you can draw some solid conclusions about how well the larger packs would preform too.

"Voltage Under Load- Some readers might think that the battery with the highest mah and “C” rating will inherently win. Once again, not so, that’s why we actually test these packs. It’s entirely possible a kick-ass 4500 20C COULD beat a 5000 30C, and some people don’t seem to realize that. For example- even in our 4S shootout the Ace 40C pack produced higher voltage than the Venom 50C pack. If a higher “C” pack always puts out more voltage, then the Venom should have done better than the Ace, and it clearly did not. For an even clearer example, take our first shootout where the Thunder Power 5400 25C averaged 7.12 volts under 30 amps and the SMC 8000 28C only averaged 7.10 volts. We never assume any pack is better than another, regardless of what its sticker says, we TEST them to separate the great, from the good, from the downright awful."

If the ratings/ sticker was accurate, the the higher spec packs would be the best- that’s just common sense. The whole point of testing these lipos is determine which manufacturers are honest about their lipos performance & which are telling porky-pies ( lies ) on their labels **cough** maxamps & venom **cough**.

continued..

[suicideneil]

"Weight- Some readers might also believe that the highest capacity and “C” rate pack will always be heavier. Not so. Do I really need to state examples? Sure! Take our first shootout where the SMC 5000 was lighter than the Speed Power 4000. Or in the second shootout where the JGB 5200 35C was lighter than the Common Sense 5000 40C. Sometimes packs will fall right into line with assumption, but not always, that’s where our hard work comes in handy for you guys looking at buying new packs."

If the packs are hard-cased then you need to take into account that the plastic used and it's thickness may vary somewhat, resulting weights that don’t seem to correspond to what you were expecting. Looking at the pictures from your previous two lipo shootouts it seems that you had a mixture of hard-cased and soft-cased packs both times; go figure that the weights vs mah capacity / C ratings were a bit out of whack.


Well, you tried your best I suppose, but you have a long way to go to impress anyone who does know the difference between series and parallel...

Yours faithfully, Neil W.

I dunno who Cubby is but he aint too bright it seems...

[What's_nitro?]

Originally Posted by suicideneil

Well, you tried your best I suppose, but you have a long way to go to impress anyone who does know the difference between series and parallel...

BIGGEST EVER!

[josh9mille]

Originally Posted by suicideneil

I responded:


continued..

So did you ever get a response from this?

[suicideneil]

Not to my 2nd email I sent them after they responded on their website, though there is this:

http://www.bigsquidrc.com/ask-cub-re...on-12-16-2010/

I dont think they know the meaning of a hardcore test.

I also noticed they had 'news' of an amazing 150amp esc from Leopard thats totally new and original, if by that they ment 100% identical to the older hobbywing 150amp esc:

http://www.bigsquidrc.com/ask-cub-re...on-12-16-2010/

The more I read on that site ( havent looked at the forum, I cant imagine what horrors await in there... ), the more I cant help thinking its written by the same kind of 'tards that write RCCA- just utter nonsense and biased reviews. Lame.

[thzero]

All I can say is at least they are trying. Show me another website, or mag, that caters to bashers and general R/C news. And they are always on the lookout for new writers. Why not instead of "bashing" them, you volunteer to do some more 'hardcode' reporting/testing/writing for them.

Originally Posted by suicideneil

The more I read on that site ( havent looked at the forum, I cant imagine what horrors await in there... ), the more I cant help thinking its written by the same kind of 'tards that write RCCA- just utter nonsense and biased reviews. Lame.

[suicideneil]

I tried to correct them and inform them where they were going wrong with their testing, but they pretty much just brushed aside my concerns- I get the feeling they arent interested in carrying out 'serious' testing, they just like writing sensationalist articles and 'fluff' stories. Clearly they are a just some group of drivers who write a website, yet dont have much of a technical background to draw upon; anyone who thinks comparing dissimilar lipos in the same graph is a fair way to create an article is clearly not interested in honest facts and figures to help people make informed buying choices.

Take another look at all their articles- they even compare junky radios to top of the line radios with completely different features and specs, then draw the conclusion that the expensive radios are better; again, noobs leading noobs pretty much....

[simplechamp]

What did you expect them to really do? Your letter was scathing, sarcastic, and extremely negative in tone. Don't get me wrong, it is good to express your opinion, and if that's the way you feel then by all means tell that to them. But don't expect them to do much, I probably would have brushed it aside too, just based on the tone and negativity. Maybe try being a little more positive next time, or at least hold back a little bit on the sarcasm. Or if you do feel they are complete idiots who don't know anything, why bother with reading and responding to their articles anyway?

[thzero]

Exactly simplechamp.

[suicideneil]

Originally Posted by simplechamp

why bother with reading and responding to their articles anyway?

Think of the noobs!, they would be lead astray by such poorly written and researched articles that are being passed off as fact & gospel...