Just got off the phone with HPI in regards to Savage Flux Lipo'sk, gears, NIMH, diffs

I just got off the phone with HPI customer support after emailing them about the following email:

Dear HPI

The following is a copy of an email sent to SMC batteries in regards to a VERY large issue with peoples Flux's MMM ESC's dying as result of poor quality Lipo batteries. We have Castle Creations stating that their MMM ESC product works best on 25C or above rated batteries which can provide at least 120 continuous amps to prevent damage to the MMM from power flucuations and spikes. Castle Creations has stated that your suggesting that the Flux can be powered via NIMH also contradicts completely with what the Castle president has stated in the following threads.

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20951

http://www.rc-monster.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18981

Your company has obligations to give us consumers that purchase YOUR PRODUCTS the BEST and MOST ACCURATE information possible for us to run our products that will give them long life and reliability. We ask that you provide publicly announced and provided UP TO DATE details in regards to what BOTH YOU AND CASTLE CREATIONS agree upon on which batteries and specific battery ratings will work best win the Savage Flux RC trucks and the equipment that powers them.

Thank your your time.

Sincerely,

************
Concerned HPI Savage Flux owner

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8821191/tm.htm

Within 2 minutes I had a call on my cell phone and I spoke with HPI rep named "Mike" at extenstion 168. Me and him had a VERY interesting and enlighting conversation. I will relate as much accurate wording as I am able to recall about our conversation. I feel obligated to share this inforation not only for Savage Flux owners, but other RC people alike on forums. Mike has stated he will back up this following conversation and statements in regards to HPI and its commitment to its customers and products, so feel free to contact him if you have questions or don't believe the following conversation.

Cell Phone rings from unknown out of state area code, so I decide to answer, unsure what to think

Hello?

"Yes, hello, Am I speaking with Bryce?"

"This is him"

"Hello Bryce this is Mike from HPI and I just read your email to us and I'm wanting to speak with you further in regards to this issue and get some clarification"

"Hello Mike, yes I have some serious concerns in regards to the information both you and Castle Creation have stated in regards to battery specifications to run your product. ALOT of people have been having MMM ESC fried as a result of poor Lipo's. You have stated on page 7 of your Savage Flux manual that you RECOMMEND 25C rated Lipo batteries and Castle has stated the same thing. Is this true?"

"Yes, we recommend no lower then 25C rated Lipo's in order for the Flux ESC and motor to run efficently and reliably as possible. In regards to SMC batteries, they are some of the top rated batteries we've ever run. I personally know Brian at SMC and they make some of the best products and our testing vouches for that. I actually ran the same type of batteries that you do at the NC championships last week and they were awesome batteries. I have also tried their 9000mAh rated Lipo's and they also were excellent"

"Castle Creations president has stated on the RC-Monster.com forums they also recommend higher quality Lipo's to prevent damage to their MMM ESC as lower quality and rated Lipo's can induce power spikes that can easily damage or fry the ESC as MANY people are attesting too. Would that be accurate as well?"

"Yes, very much so however I will point out that HPI has never turned down a burnt or damaged ESC claim before and will not do so. We cannot specifically ask or order or clients to give us specific information into when, why, how of their product usage as thats simply bad customer service and we value our customers higher then to grill on them on such specific details. Castle is also the same way"

"Well thats very good to hear. This is my first brushless and Lipo setup and so far am very happy with it"

"I'm very glad to hear that, I enjoy mine as well"

"But then it almost seems like mis information as you guys also state that you can run the Savage Flux via NIMH batteries. Castles president has stated they NIMH just simply don't have the discharge outpout to reliably run their equipment and dont' recommend it but you guys state in the manual that you can. Can you elaborate?"

"Certainly. We've done extensive testing with the Savage flux and Castles MMM ESC and though YOU CAN power the MMM via NIMH, IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED. NIMH of course do not have as high or reliable discharge current as Lipo's, so you are risking a possible failure of the ESC as a result but again however, we will not turn down a claim as a result of using NIMH on our product"

"I see, but it would seem somewhat counter intuitive for you to make recommendations that may result in higher product failures on both you and Castle creations end?"

"Again, you can run our Savage Flux with NIMH batteries, we just don't recommend it for the following reasons that it does increase your chances of damaging the ESC and once again, we will back up our claims and will process any RMA'ed ESC as a result of running NIMH, its simply our way of supporting our customers"

"Well thats excellent to hear, especially after having a Traxxas Revo two years ago, which I won't even get into"

*Mike laughs into phone*

"That brings me to my next concern as well as ALOT of other Flux owners. You state in your manual that you recommend installing the 25T pinion on the Flux while using 6S Lipo's. This has been brought up in topics about people frying their ESC's as a result of the increased power draw and stress on the system and Castle Creations president has also stated that this is not recommened for their products. Whats the deal?"

"To make sure we do not give false advertisment, which is that our Savage Flux can run up to 62MPH out of the box, which it can, we PROVIDE the necassary gear, in this case the 25T pinion for us to make and back up the claim. However, you and Castles president is correct, it is very stressful on the system and it borders on redline as far as danger and stressing the components of the Flux.

"I noticed that below those street claims you state to run 6S lipo and run your street tires to reach those speeds"

"Correct. It also is the same recommendation for our new Tork 2650kv motor is designed purely for TOP SPEED. It it designed to be basically run in straight lines"

"So you are stating that the 2650kv motor would not be an idea choice for all around bashing?"

"Correct, its for impressing and speed runs, nothing more and again, it will push Lipo and the ESC to its limits, therebye requiring top quality Lipo's to order to run saftely"

"So what gearing ratio would you recommend then if someone like me whos thining about trying 6S and not having to worry about frying my ESC or Lipos?"

"I would go no higher then 22T pinion"

"So running the stock 20T pinion would be just fine?"

"Yes, you will not reach the top advertised speed but you will reduce the strain on the ESC, motor and Lipo' vs using the 25T pinion"

"Speaking of strain, there has been ALOT of issues in regards to people breaking the drivetrain on the Flux's"

"Are you speaking in regards to the top drive gear wear in the center diff?

"Uhh, well that also is an issue and i'm on my second one with grease and its still being filed away"

"We are aware of that and hence we have released the hardened steel version to help reduce this problem. Have you placed an order for one?

"No, everyone is on back order, I can't find one anywhere"

"Let me go ahead and put you in the que for back order one as I personally want to take care of my customers"

"Well thank you very much, that speaks volumes for your customer service and HPI"

"Most welcome"

"But other people are having many issues with the front and rear diffs breaking and failing under many different situations"

"The Savage Flux puts out ALOT of power and torque in an instant and no RC product capable of withstanding standing backflips, hard jackrabbit starts and brakes. We are aware of this issue and I though CANNOT state specifics, HPI will have a public announcement and solution to this problem in the coming month. The standing backflips though impressive, amount to most of the damaged diffs claims we have seen, but we will honor and replace them"

"Really? So you are aware of the amount of diffs problems with the Fluxs?

"Yes and again, we will not turn down any RMA'ed differentials and again, I cannot state specifics on what the announcement will be in regards too but rest assured, we have an answer for our customers"

"Awesome to hear Mike. That says alot for your guys reputation in regards to customer service and support. This is my first HPI product and other then these few issues, I love the crap out of it, its been so enjoyable in comparison to nitro"

"I am very glad to hear that. Again, SMC puts out top notch quality batteries and I have tested their new 9000mAh Lipo and they are awesome. They are also planning on releasing a hard cased 3S Lipo on the near future since you sound interested in running 6S. It sounds like in regards to this gentlemen who was told that SMC's 18C batteries would be enough to run the system that he was simply misinformed via the LHS and or word of mouth which sadly, theres not much we can do about. But we will handle all claims irregardless of reason for our products, we don't turn out customers down"

"Wow, thanks so very much Mike for your input, honesty and service in regards to this. Me and many other Flux owners have put down alot of money into these trucks and just want to protect our investment and be told accurate information on how to keep them running reliably"

"Very understandable and again, we will do ALL CLAIMS in regards to failure of our products, regardless of how it happened. Customers are encouraged to call us directly for answers to their questions. Emailing only goes so far and tends to get mis communicated, I prefer one on one speaking with my customers such as myself"

"I agree, I work as a proffessional IT tech for a large invesment firm and in the end, nothing speaks volumes more then speaking and helping your customer on a face to face basis"

"I agree with you completely, you are free to share this information with people on the web as well as how to get ahold of me. I have no qualms of backing up my statments or HPI's products, thats what I'm here for and I enjoy it"

"Mike, thanks so much for your time, understanding and information. It does speak volumes for your and HPI, especially when you called me within just a few minutes of my sending the email. I was surprised to see my cell phone ringing with and outside zip code and it turned out to be you!"

"Yes, after reading your email, I was confused and mostly concerned with what was going on and I felt that a phone conversation was the best way to help you. Again if you have any further questions or concerns, you may reach me at EXT #168 or anyone else for that matter if they want more information"

Thanks again Mike!

"Your most welcome Bryce!"

Wow, well I certainly wasn't expecting THAT from HPI and so fast! This speaks volumes that they really do care about us, their customers and are willing to go great length to help keep us happy and back up their products. Savage Flux owners, I think its safe to say that HPI will take care of us and our beloved Flux's now and for the forseeable future! Rock on HPI, Castle Creations and SMC!

[BrianG]

Nice to hear! Hopefully, HPI releases their announcement soon. In the manaul and on their site, they should clarify the risks and intended use for the various gearing. People see X mph on the box and they think that is possibly under all circumstances.

Originally Posted by BrianG

Nice to hear! Hopefully, HPI releases their announcement soon. In the manaul and on their site, they should clarify the risks and intended use for the various gearing. People see X mph on the box and they think that is possibly under all circumstances.

Thank you also Brian for your awesome forum, help and suggestions as well as allowing us the opportunity to speak with Castle creations directly. No hard feelings I hope?

[BrianG]

It's not my forum...

Originally Posted by BrianG

It's not my forum...

Oh woops

[BrianG]

[Slowkrawl]

Originally Posted by Freezebyte

Oh woops

I'd say you just "licked the wrong bag" LOL.

That pretty much tops it all off for me, the flux appears to have a few small issues however it sounds like HPI will stand behind their product no matter what the hell you do to it.

Originally Posted by Slowkrawl

I'd say you just "licked the wrong bag" LOL.

Ah yeah, the props go to you Mike.

[Unsullied_Spy]

Thanks for the thread, this should help clear up quite a few issues for people. Sounds like HPI really takes care of their customers, makes me much more likely to purchase another HPI product in the future, they were also very helpful when my Baja ate it's own engine.

[shaunjohnson]

well if this announcement wont make poor un-knoledged noobs stop whining about melted MMM's then nothing will

one of these days i reckon castle should make a bomb proof ESC for 1/8th trucks...kinda like a MMM v4...
basicly increase everything so that the 40v FET/CAP brake reading is not even close to being reached.
and you can pull 200A's out of it but it will shut down after 2 secs of pulling that many amps, waterproof too would make
it very appealing to traxxas/HPI methinks :)

anyways...what a good phone call

[JThiessen]

Good job Bryce. I have to say, it was starting to look like you were "ambulance chasing" in a way with a lot of your posts. Most of what HPI said there is information that has been stated on many of the theads here, but I think you really needed to hear it from HPI to ease your fears. Being informed with facts and data is the key to most anything.

I am very excited to hear that there is something coming for the diffs. I think HPI realized it caused its own warranty downfall with its publicity video - there must be thousands of kids out there doing standing backflips with thier trucks thinking its ok due to the video. I know I do it every now and then, with this stupid guilt feeling lurking in the shadows........

I wonder how many people will actually take the time to place a warranty claim on a diff? 20 to 30 bucks in parts or so, right?

ps., on edit - maybe the info should go in a sticky here or on the Savage Forum.

In response to this thread that kinda got outa hand, im also going to post the response I got from Bryan at SMC just to prove how awesome of a guy he is and SMC about their products and customer support.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_88...mpage_3/tm.htm



Bryce,

We have ran the 3418LD in our trucks with no problems. We each only have about 10-15 runs on the packs and our ESC is in good shape. The system still performs the way it did when it was brand new. We just got back from the No Limit R/C World Finals and my truck was good enough to win the long jump on 2 2S packs, some 63 feet I believe, even after supposedly doing damage after using the lower "C" rated batteries. If I or anyone that is associated with SMC say that our 18C, 24C, or any other "C" rated battery works fine in a particular application, this is our testing. If we haven't fried anything on our trucks why would anyone else. As I explained to you yesterday, each company's "C" rating can and probably is measured differently, so a 18C SMC may be equivalent to another company's 25C. As I also stated yesterday, one of HPI's drivers/employee used that same pack the entire weekend at the Toyota Long Beach Grand Prix two months ago and had zero issues while using those packs. And yes, I did talk to a gentleman yesterday and told him that the pack works with the MMM to our knowledge. I told him that I couldn't guarantee him anything as this is based solely on our information and information given to us by those who test our products.

The most important detail in this theory of needing a 25C or 30C battery so stated by CC is...What battery do they recommend? Have they tested a battery that has a TRUE "C" rating? I have only heard of one customer who has an issue with any of SMC's LiPo's in his FLUX. He was using our 2624LD, 2600 mAh 24C LiPo. The owner thought that his charger may have been the issue so we tested the same packs in my personal FLUX Savage. I charged the packs, ran the truck then as soon as the batteries died I brought them right back to the charger and did the process all over again. I ran those packs 4 consecutive times, no breaks, no down time unless you count charging as down time) with zero issues. If there are issues with our products, we should see them as we run our two trucks 4 days a week, 2-3 times each day.

I'll check out the link in your email now. Also, I understand you want to protect your investment as I want to protect mine. The FLUX Savage is by no means a cheap or starter R/C vehicle but the general R/C public need to understand that ALL electronics can have issues! An ESC, motor, battery, servo, receiver...Any thing can have a defect.

Thanks,

Bryan @ SMC

Bryce,

Just looked @ the hpi manual and it says..."We recommend battery packs with a 25C rating or better. Using batteries with a lower C rating may result in damage to your batteries." CC may have more information to there products, but it doesn't say that lower "C" rated batteries will damage the ESC, at least not in the hpi manual. I just looked at your thread in the last email and I didn't see any posts from anyone saying they had fried a MMM ESC form using lower "C" rated batteries. The only thing I saw was a guy being picked apart for using a lower "C" rated battery, ours of course. As I told the gentleman yesterday, we see good results, we do not say we recommend them, nor do we say hpi recommends them. Our testing shows they are capable of usage without harm to any component of the truck. I also told the gentleman that we have a 5500 mAh 28C 11.1v LiPo if the 18C would not work or was not up to his standards.

SMC is not in the business of providing false or misleading information. We do not advertise in any magazine, so our strong backing and long list of customers comes solely from word of mouth and track performance. Hobbyists are sold on our great reputation and our high quality products. I'm sorry if we disagree on the requirements of the CC MMM ESC, but this is just from OUR personal testing. Again, thank you for the kind words about our 6028LD packs. They are a hot item and they work very well in the FLUX Savage as power output and runtime is very impressive. I hope you continue to have great success with our products and continue to be a supporter of SMC's.

Thanks,

Bryan @ SMC



Bryce,

Actually, he pm'd me and told me to look at what he had posted. He is a friend from the hpisavageforum, but I did not send him on there. You haven't inconvenienced SMC or me. You wanted a straight answer and we or I did the best to our abilities to bring this to you. The internet can be a horrible place and it can be a very nice place to hang out and chat and trust me, I know about things getting scrambled in translation. We don't have plans as of now to bring out a hardcase LiPo in 3s configuration as it would greatly reduce the capacity of the pack. If you call up HPI and ask to speak to Michael McAllister is customer service, he will tell you that he was running the softcase 8000mAh 28C and 9000mAh 28C 2s packs throughout the weekend at the World Finals. These softcase packs were also used by myself, our other employee Scott, John Schultz from HPI and just about all of the No Limit R/C staff and groups. There is always the possibility that a pack can become damaged, even in a hardcase and I have seen this happen. If you would like to run the softcase packs, you could cut some .30 or.40 lexan strips to cover up the holes in the battery box, keeping rocks and debris out of the compartment. As for the wires, yes they are a bit short but the battery box needs to be modified for issue free usage. Everyone I know with a Savage Flux, even the HPI guys, remove some material from the top of the box, allowing the wires to come directly out of the top instead of trying to fandangle them through the "way to small" opening on the back of the compartment. I think I have pics somewhere of my personal modification. If you need them, let me know.

Again, no worries or hard feelings about this issue. We are here for our customers and you fall into that category.

Thanks,

Bryan @ SMC

[NoControl]

As far as making a bomb proof esc I'd say they'd need to make it with 100v 500a fets overkill but we are talking about bomb proof here, too bad fets like that are sparce if not non existant and cost aquiet a bit, plus they are big.