To beat the nitros, drive better. - RC-Monster Forums

Ryu James · 01:27 PM

I keep seeing these posts all the time where people say something to the effect of "i want to run 2200kv on 6s so i can smoke the nitros at the track and embarass them. lol" of course, 6s/2200kv is just an example. the motor and batteries vary but the goal is the same. to beat nitros. when i read these i think to myself, "you are only going to embarass yourself." anyway, in my experience the only time brushless will "smoke" nitros is in a straight line. at least at my track, the nitros go just as fast as any brushless can around the track and we all take turns winning. sometimes nitro, sometimes brushless. i just thought some of the newbs should know that having a faster car does not necessarily mean you will be faster at the track. i know i thought the same thing a year ago when i was getting into brushless. that my cars were just so fast i would definitely beat the pants off the nitros. well, i lost my pants. when it comes to racing, skill is the best way to win. and where is the glory in beating i nitro in a straight line anway? dont get me wrong. i LOVE speed! but i know that my 55mph brushless 8b goes around the track at the same speed as my friend Joe's 40mph nitro 8b. does anyone agree? or are there tracks out there really large enough to open up a brushless motor to 60mph and still keep the car on the track?

BP-Revo · 08.30.2009, 01:32 PM

I'll have to agree with 1 exception...

Having way to much power is great when you can't seem to get around this one guy in the infield, so you just blow him out of the water down the straight. That's what happened to me last time at the track. I was practicing and "racing" against this 8T with my G2R, and while we were pretty close most of the way around the track (I got him a bit in the tighter turns due to torque but he caught up through a rhythm section I wasn't used to), I just used the straightaway to stay ahead. All I had to do was make sure to roll on the throttle to not get wheel spin and I could get down the straight in the same time he got down about half. This was only on 4S too.

BL_RV0 · 08.30.2009, 01:57 PM

That's BL for ya...

zeropointbug · 08.30.2009, 04:17 PM

James I kinda agree with you... except for one aspect... a good brushless driver can be faster than a nitro in every part of the track... I am racing now and can honestly say it is much better out of the corners, you can get to the next corner faster than a nitro, then there is the straight as well. And if you have a triple jump or something like that and not much space, a brushless is more likely to get enough speed to make the triple, however, it may or may not be faster than taking double then the third after.

The first time I was out racing ever in June, I was in 2nd place out of 7, they were all nitros, I ended up getting 4th because of an unexpected shutdown.

The first part of the race I wasn't doing so well, then I just got faster and faster until I realized that with BL power, I can get away from them out of every corner. I was soon in 2nd place and catching up to 1st place truck.

I will have to agree though, there are some pretty good nitro engines out there that can compete with a BL system when tuning is done right, but not faster.

Finally, yes, you don't need OR want 6s/2200kv setup on the track, you can never use it... heck I use a 1512/1700kv on 6s and it is just right IMO for the track, it has really snappy power, lighter than a 1515, and can beat anything down the straight. I can even beat a Tekin (4s, 1900kv) BL Eight that a guy converted since he saw my Revo, which I don't understand?

There are other things that need to be considered as well, like going from 645mg servo and bow-tie MT tires to 7955TG and Crime-Fighters LPR was a HUGE difference for me around the track, one of the reasons I did so well at the last race. I am going to get some AKA City Blocks soon, that should be another big jump.

Ryu James · 08.30.2009, 04:46 PM

all of you have great points and of course i agree. i am a brushless addict and prefer them over nitro of course. i guess when i think about it a little more the average nitro rtr isnt gonna compare with any brushless setup. at our local track i guess i am thinking of the nitro guys that are really good. basically each week we have about 4 brushless buggies and 3-4 nitros. all of the nitros do get left in the dust except for one guy. he has a GRP motor with the orange heatsink (dont know much about nitro motors) on his losi 8b 2.0. his car is fast. our straight is about 75ft long and he gets down it just as fast as any of us. but only because there isnt enough room for me to hit full throttle and still keep the car contained. also, you are right on the jumps. although his car is fast he cant clear a doubledouble like us BL guys can. we can take it as a quad where he has to hit both doubles. however, despite some of the obvious performance advantages of BL setups he continuously finishes 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. i have seen other guys with very nice nitro setups beat the pants off brushless drivers. these guys are sponsored and such though.
i guess my point was that there are guys good enough to beat brushless with their nitros simply because of their driving abililty. i wasnt implying that brushless isnt better than nitro because, in my opinion, brushless is far superior than nitro in many ways. i just think its naive when i see guys put up a post that makes it sound like if they just buy a fast brushless they are gonna be winning every race against the nitros. if there are any half-decent drivers at their track they are gonna need to learn how to drive too. but again, brushless is my choice any day of the week.

emaxxnitro · 08.30.2009, 05:59 PM

100% true.
having a a$$ load of power is not going to make you win. heck im only geared for 35mph and i keep up with the nitros. 6s on a 2200 is like having slicks. its not going to help you. you will just crash and burn. while the nitro noisily laps you.

zeropointbug · 08.30.2009, 06:08 PM

Well said. Yeah, here as well, there are a couple guys with $500 engines (O.S. Star lineup) that can just about keep up with me, they are no slouches by any means.

The only guy in MT that gives me a challenge somewhat is the only LST, the rest are Revo 3.3's. The LST handles very good, whatever he did to it, it's me way up in 1st by a long shot, then him like one lap behind on a 30 min main, then the rest of the Revo's are a few laps behind.

It could be cause I'm just that good? Or I am fairly average driver with a helping hand in the straights and such. But, none the less, my nitro head pit guys said it looked like I was driving a truggy because of how fast it was around the track.

http://picasaweb.google.com/SethHuls...44211721253442

http://picasaweb.google.com/SethHulsebosch/RCPhotos#♦

Never the less, your original post is correct, 6s/2200kv. CC/Neu power is NOT going to win you races, in fact, it is a disadvantage, IMO. You want about 1500watts for racing BL with good nitros, that's all it takes, and that's all you want.

starscream · 08.30.2009, 07:22 PM

I agree 100% with the first post
Winning is 95% skill, 4% setup and 1% luck

Quote:

Originally Posted by BP-Revo

I'll have to agree with 1 exception...
Having way to much power is great when you can't seem to get around this one guy in the infield, so you just blow him out of the water down the straight

The ability to "blow him out of the water down the straight" is based on the difference between the electric setup and the nitro setup as well as the length of the straight. Nitro's gain their power at higher RPM so although you will have an advantage at the start of the straight, the nitro engine may actually surpass you if the straight is long enough. Electric cars definetly have an advantage on a smaller track.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeropointbug

James I kinda agree with you... except for one aspect... a good brushless driver can be faster than a nitro in every part of the track

This maybe true if both drivers have the same skill level and the electric car is setup properly for the track/conditions. James's point is that higher skill level is the determining factor for winning a race. An average driver with an electric car will not be able to beat a highly skilled nitro driver.

When it comes down to it, if all the vehicles in a race (nitro or electric) are setup properly for the track/conditions, the most skilled driver should win barring any unforseen break downs.

If you want to sharpen your skills, get a 10th scale buggy like a b4 and keep practicing. If you can be competitive in 10th scale racing, 8th scale racing will be much easier.

crazyjr · 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryu James

I keep seeing these posts all the time where people say something to the effect of "i want to run 2200kv on 6s so i can smoke the nitros at the track and embarass them. lol" of course, 6s/2200kv is just an example. the motor and batteries vary but the goal is the same. to beat nitros. when i read these i think to myself, "you are only going to embarass yourself." anyway, in my experience the only time brushless will "smoke" nitros is in a straight line. at least at my track, the nitros go just as fast as any brushless can around the track and we all take turns winning. sometimes nitro, sometimes brushless. i just thought some of the newbs should know that having a faster car does not necessarily mean you will be faster at the track. i know i thought the same thing a year ago when i was getting into brushless. that my cars were just so fast i would definitely beat the pants off the nitros. well, i lost my pants. when it comes to racing, skill is the best way to win. and where is the glory in beating i nitro in a straight line anway? dont get me wrong. i LOVE speed! but i know that my 55mph brushless 8b goes around the track at the same speed as my friend Joe's 40mph nitro 8b. does anyone agree? or are there tracks out there really large enough to open up a brushless motor to 60mph and still keep the car on the track?

I have to agree with this, "power is nothing without control". When i set up something for racing, i match the speed of the nitro's. You just don't need any more, really. When i talk electrics with smokers, I get, "Why so much power?" due to me wanting to run higher voltages, I say its not about power it's efficiency I'm after. The next statement usually is "If not for power it's not worth it", that's usually before They realize I'm still running after their 3rd or 4th pit stop. I still say that Novak's are the best racing setups for buggies and MT's (despite running hot and being a bit behind the times, hopefully the "next gen" setups will improve on that), simply because they do the best at mimicking the nitro's speed and overall power. I might get blasted for that last comment, but it's my belief

BTW, I have raced and lapped the field with a Novak hv 4400(pre-sintered rotor). I have yet to really run a true high power setup in an official race, I hope to soon, but i will still be using nitro's speed to help setup my trucks

crazyjr · 08.30.2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starscream

I agree 100% with the first post
Winning is 95% skill, 4% setup and 1% luck

The ability to "blow him out of the water down the straight" is based on the difference between the electric setup and the nitro setup as well as the length of the straight. Nitro's gain their power at higher RPM so although you will have an advantage at the start of the straight, the nitro engine may actually surpass you if the straight is long enough. Electric cars definetly have an advantage on a smaller track.

This maybe true if both drivers have the same skill level and the electric car is setup properly for the track/conditions. James's point is that higher skill level is the determining factor for winning a race. An average driver with an electric car will not be able to beat a highly skilled nitro driver.

When it comes down to it, if all the vehicles in a race (nitro or electric) are setup properly for the track/conditions, the most skilled driver should win barring any unforseen break downs.

If you want to sharpen your skills, get a 10th scale buggy like a b4 and keep practicing. If you can be competitive in 10th scale racing, 8th scale racing will be much easier.

You and i think alike, it's not what you drive, its how you drive. I have a 1/10 truck (T4) that i take to the track even if there isn't a race, just for practice

starscream · 08.30.2009, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjr

I have to agree with this, "power is nothing without control". When i set up something for racing, i match the speed of the nitro's. You just don't need any more, really. When i talk electrics with smokers, I get, "Why so much power?" due to me wanting to run higher voltages, I say its not about power it's efficiency I'm after. The next statement usually is "If not for power it's not worth it", that's usually before They realize I'm still running after their 3rd or 4th pit stop. I still say that Novak's are the best racing setups for buggies and MT's (despite running hot and being a bit behind the times, hopefully the "next gen" setups will improve on that), simply because they do the best at mimicking the nitro's speed and overall power. I might get blasted for that last comment, but it's my belief

BTW, I have raced and lapped the field with a Novak hv 4400(pre-sintered rotor). I have yet to really run a true high power setup in an official race, I hope to soon, but i will still be using nitro's speed to help setup my trucks

I agree that the Novak HV system is smooth and I had some success with it in my buggy but unfortunately the system is not engineered properly and will eventually fail. I'm not sure how Novak keeps up with all the warranties for these esc's. I'm also puzzled why the HV's seem to work OK in MT's and fail so often in a buggy.

crazyjr · 08.30.2009, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starscream

I agree that the Novak HV system is smooth and I had some success with it in my buggy but unfortunately the system is not engineered properly and will eventually fail. I'm not sure how Novak keeps up with all the warranties for these esc's. I'm also puzzled why the HV's seem to work OK in MT's and fail so often in a buggy.

I think it's direct drive verses a gearbox/slipper setups, only thing i can think of. May also be the body is higher and allows more air to cool, Buggies don't have much room for air vents

emaxxnitro · 08.30.2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjr

I think it's direct drive verses a gearbox/slipper setups, only thing i can think of. May also be the body is higher and allows more air to cool, Buggies don't have much room for air vents

tranny vs. direct drive?

starscream · 08.30.2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyjr

I think it's direct drive verses a gearbox/slipper setups, only thing i can think of. May also be the body is higher and allows more air to cool, Buggies don't have much room for air vents

Sorry for side tracking the thread...

I think you're right. If the fan looses teeth or fails at all the HV will go up in smoke. If any esc requires a fan from "letting the smoke out" then a built-in thermal shutdown should be required as well. Whats funny is that the HV motor has this feature but not the ESC...
I'm interested to see Novaks 8th scale ESC though. I haven't heard anything about it lately though

starscream · 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emaxxnitro

tranny vs. direct drive?

The revo's slipper clutch can help reduce the amount of initial current.
Unless you run RCM's slipper diff, then its possible that the buggies direct drive may pull more current than a MT.
The MT's may also soak up bumps better than a buggy which may keep the fans from failing as easily.

The HV needs proper cooling or it will "let the smoke out"