No ask, no tell me

[zeropointbug]

Originally Posted by reno911

I have had this conversation before on many attempts to do away with DNA and genetics being a fault to Homosexuality. If you are a believer in scientific factors of evolution, than why would a species DNA allow for a form of being that goes against the simplest factor of life, reproduction. The sole purpose of life is life, and its forever continuum.

Completely agree.

On the opposite side, if you are religious, and think that god created you the way you are, and being such way is against 'god's plan', then.... well, need I say more?

[reno911]

On a religious viewpoint I still see it as a decision. Depending on how you perceive the Bible, God gave you the ability to chose from right or wrong. By choosing to go against God's rules you chose to damn yourself to hell. Blah Blah Blah, back to our government. If your gay, that's a choice. If your willing to join the military, that is another decision. If our government sees gays as a threat to the military, yet another decision. If gays are any different from any other person who serves the military, now that is a question.

Edit: probably should have used the word choice instead of decision.

[kulangflow]

I personally don't believe that it's genetic, but I don't know enough to prove it one way or the other. If it is biological, I would guess that it's more of a genetic abnormality than an evolutionary trait, like being left-handed. (lol)

I really despise the term "homophobic" as a blanket to cover all who disagree with their choice of lifestyle. I don't agree with polygamy either, but it doesn't make my "polygamyphobic".

ZPB, interesting point about religion. I think God created a template for the human body but then allows nature to take its course with respect to forming the body within the womb. This helps explain abnormalities like my son's brain not forming properly. I think we are all given challenges to overcome. Many married monogamists may (nice alliteration) have a "natural" desire to stray and spread seed, so the challenge is to overcome the temptation and become stronger for it in order to maintain a solid family unit.

[suicideneil]

I dont think anyone wakes up decides 'hmm, I think I'll be gay today, since its socially acceptable now'.

It isnt a lifestyle choice, you cant help being gay anymore than you can help being black, white,tall or short- its the way you are born; just takes some people longer to realise & admit to it than others, for obvious reaosns I would hope.

As for letting homosexuals serve in the military, why not? Just so long as they dont start wearing pink bandanas as muslim insurgents would have a field day...

[reno911]

In that case would you say murderers, thieves, and rapist grow up to be what they are. Or is there a choice behind whether or not you kill someone. Your suggesting fate, or a predetermined life. Ultimately if that is the case than there is nothing to life. If I am going to die tomorrow as of an already decided fate, I think I may chose to be gay tomorrow. ;)

Being white, black, short, or tall are genetic traits. You can not chose those. Maybe alter them, but you can not chose your genes. There isn't such a case with homosexuality. It is a mental decision. Many gays live with the opposite sex for years before they decide to do what they want to do, which is decide that they want to be with the same sex.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by kulangflow

ZPB, interesting point about religion. I think God created a template for the human body but then allows nature to take its course with respect to forming the body within the womb. This helps explain abnormalities like my son's brain not forming properly. I think we are all given challenges to overcome. Many married monogamists may (nice alliteration) have a "natural" desire to stray and spread seed, so the challenge is to overcome the temptation and become stronger for it in order to maintain a solid family unit.

I think that's well said. It fits what I believe. I also don't have a problem with evolution for the most part. There are many missing pieces like many things in science but don't see were anyone should believe God wouldn't let things evolve naturally as they need to.

Going back to genetic vs psychological I believe it's a psychological thing and can't be compared to being a different race. I believe that many factors including some that could be genetic can cause these feelings in people and fault no one for their feelings.

As was said previously by kulang:

Originally Posted by kulangflow

The line changes over time within most cultures. At what point does the line of acceptance drift far enough away that it becomes detrimental to the culture?

It's also hard to get past reno's point about evolution and what guides it to believe it would be a genetic part of evolution. One would think evolution would want to guide away from such things.

But to the main point I go in public bathrooms with gay people, I have been at the Y and other places and probably been in the shower areas with gay people, and none have ever jumped me. Of course there will always be people who take inappropriate actions but I don't think with the gay community that it is the norm.

Now I have heard the prison factor presented here but most psychologists/psychiatrists and the studies there of will point that homosexuality in prison is not about sex as much as it is about dominance. Kind of like when one male dog mounts another.

[TexasSP]

Originally Posted by reno911

Being white, black, short, or tall are genetic traits. You can not chose those. Maybe alter them, but you can not chose your genes. There isn't such a case with homosexuality. It is a mental decision. Many gays live with the opposite sex for years before they decide to do what they want to do, which is decide that they want to be with the same sex.

It's also not like a black man can say that he was living a white lifestyle all his life and now has decided to be what he truly is as a black man.

[kulangflow]

I tend to think some people may have pre-dispositions for certain preferences, but that does not mean they need to accept them and give in to them. I notice this by watching large families grow up together. The nuture part is as similar as possible, same parents, income level, etc, but sometimes one boy will drift toward dresses while the rest stay with sports. I think the same goes for murderers, etc.

I think it's okay to have differing opinions about all of this, but it's pretty tough to say you know for a fact one way or the other, regardless of how strong one's opinion may be.

[reno911]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

It's also not like a black man can say that he was living a white lifestyle all his life and now has decided to be what he truly is as a black man.

Obama?

[reno911]

Originally Posted by kulangflow

I think it's okay to have differing opinions about all of this, but it's pretty tough to say you know for a fact one way or the other, regardless of how strong one's opinion may be.

By all means I hope I do not portray the image that I have any idea that I know what I am talking about. I have a few gay friends and have had this conversation, argument, debate many many times. From those conversations, some with my friends, my friends and I have come to the conclusion that they have made a decision to be gay, due to their personal lifestyles and paths they they took getting to today.

[kulangflow]

Originally Posted by TexasSP

But to the main point I go in public bathrooms with gay people, I have been at the Y and other places and probably been in the shower areas with gay people, and none have ever jumped me. Of course there will always be people who take inappropriate actions but I don't think with the gay community that it is the norm.

For me it's not the fear of action, but simply privacy. If a straight guy was in a shower full of women, he's going to be tempted to stare at them if nothing else. If a straight guy is in a shower full of guys, he'll break his own neck NOT to look at the other guys in there. Obviously there are exceptions, but I just want to maintain my own personal privacy.

[kulangflow]

Originally Posted by reno911

By all means I hope I do not portray the image that I have any idea that I know what I am talking about.

That wasn't directed toward you. It was just a general thought for everyone in the discussion. It helps keeps things civil and interesting when people remember that none of this can really be proven, so we're just sharing ideas.

I worked with many gay people when I lived in California. I never ended up being friends with them. Not because of hate, but just because the flamboyance of many of them was irritating. Even the non-flamboyant ones ended up acting flamboyant to fit in with the others. Not a big fan of that.

Also, regarding evolution, we should remember that the theory is a gradual process of keeping good traits and leaving off the undesirable ones. It doesn't necessarily mean the undesirable ones don't occur (extra fingers, really short people, politicians, etc).

[suicideneil]

Originally Posted by reno911

Being white, black, short, or tall are genetic traits. You can not chose those. Maybe alter them, but you can not chose your genes. There isn't such a case with homosexuality. It is a mental decision. Many gays live with the opposite sex for years before they decide to do what they want to do, which is decide that they want to be with the same sex.

Uh-hu...

I think you'll find its called living in denial; the exact reason why some men get married to a woman, have kids, but then run off with another man because they just couldnt live with pretending to be straight. It isnt a lifestyle choice, nor is it a conscious decision to be different; you dont seriously think that bum-sex is appealing to a straight man, just because he fancies something new, different?

Seriously, you guys should try actually talking to some homosexuals and finding out why they lead the lifestyle that they do- if it feels 'right' and 'natural', then who are we to judge or jump to conclusions that its just them trying not to fit in or that its against imaginary friends/God's will.

Pfft, please...

[reno911]

I have nothing to hide, if a guy wants to fancy a glance at me then go for it. Women size each other up more than men do. Trust me my wife will more than likely always notices an extremely good looking woman before I do, or huge boobies. She is not a lesbian.

Guys do it too, I showered at the gym when I had a membership, when your not trying so hard not to look at anything, try watching. You'll be surprised at how much others, straight or gay, look around for the one eyed snake.

I think men have developed a certain mental problem over the years. We have formed a stupid mental condition that does not allow us to allow other men to notice us. Women compliment each other all the time, regarding just about anything. Ever tried telling a guy he looks good. Take note of the response. Hell I envy Brad Pitt, I think his personality and style, combined with good looks and such make him a really good looking attractive man. Does that last comment make me gay?

[Overdriven]

Personally I think alot of factors go into how a person acts in society whether being gay, homicidal etc. Genetics and biology certainly play a roleas everyone is "wired" differently. Think about people who are really smart and able to make scientific discoveries. Then there's ADD, ADHD, those with anger issues. These factors are sometimes biological and can lead to the increased "possibility" of certain behaviors. Is there a gay gene? Maybe not, but certain biological factors mixed with that persons social environment may have something to do with it.

Back to the Dont ask don't tell policy. The simple fact is, homosexuality in the military is (or can be) a distraction. There's no room for distractions while protecting this country. There are those in this country (and serving in the military) who believe homosexuality is an abomination and will do anything they can to stop it and spread their view. An openly gay person in their unit would be a distraction to them and as a result, to others in the unit also. Then there's possible hazing, constant verbal threats/abuse, physical confrontation, etc. Considering those factors, one could argue it's to protect the gay service person too. It's unfortunate that the law puts gays "back in the closet", but it's the way it is.

One thing I don't agree with is a service person being discharged when they're found out to be gay. Especially when that person is of higher rank or a career soldier. If they are good enough to earn higher ranks or comitted enough to be career, just transfer them to another base.