going to buy a rifle---advice?

[Unsullied_Spy]

Originally Posted by Riko

why?

okay, I understand that your country was formed under violent speration from the English rule. And that the US expaned to the west also with violence.
So I can understand that violence has been part of the american culture...
However, the US are not the only country that made itself independant by the means of violence, but they one of the most prominent gun-lovers in the world.

That's what I was trying to understand. The whole cultural-historical arugment is becoming less valid.

Anyhow, why do I have to open my eyes if I think that less guns is more safety?
Isn't that logic? Here in Europe the home defence with guns are a vast majority, so are we all blind and stupid here?...

We have grown quite attached to our rights and freedoms and don't take kindly to them being taken away.

Less guns does not equal less crime, the region of the U.S. where I live (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota) has the loosest gun laws and highest gun ownership per capita in the U.S. yet it is the safest place to live? By your logic there should be murders every day and the whole countryside overrun with panic and chaos but that is not the case. Violent crimes occur all around the world (take Austalia as an example). Criminals don't care about the law, that's why they are criminals, so outlawing guns only takes them out of the hands of the 90+ million law abiding citizens and only assists the criminals. So much easier to be a criminal when your victims cannot defend themselves.

[JThiessen]

Originally Posted by Unsullied_Spy

Less guns does not equal less crime, the region of the U.S. where I live (Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota) has the loosest gun laws and highest gun ownership per capita in the U.S. yet it is the safest place to live?

The people are vastly different in the "majority" of the country Unsullied, which is why you see the difference in attitude towards this issue. I dont know how to explain in a short blurb, but think res mentality mixed with 1.5 million self absorbed a-holes.

[Unsullied_Spy]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

The people are vastly different in the "majority" of the country Unsullied, which is why you see the difference in attitude towards this issue. I dont know how to explain in a short blurb, but think res mentality mixed with 1.5 million self absorbed a-holes.

Indeed, I can open carry down main street here and nobody would care. Try that in Seattle and people would freak out. It isn't the gun that you have to worry about, it won't load itself and go crazy, its the person that I worry about.

[redshift]

"i kinda wanna move to America some day because of some of the unusual sports they have over there (big fan of hovercraft racing"

Alright, I need to clear this up once and for all. We do NOT all have hovercrafts in our garages, we do not take our hovercraft to Hover-Mart and do our shopping with hover carts.



Really tho, are you serious?

That's the oddest thing I may have ever heard... I did not realize Aussies think that's big over here!?

Unless NASCAR actually makes the leap into the 20th century and does something like that, I don't see it.......

[lincpimp]

Wow, alot here to digest, here we go.

Originally Posted by Riko

As a non-American, I find this whole thread kinda funny and it makes me curious at the same time :)

I am tired of asking myself the same question all over again "what is it with Americans and their guns" so I'll just assume it's a historical thing/tradition :)

Much like the Dutch do iceskating, the Belgians love cycling etc I guess.

ps: talking about Belgium, any of you guys own a FN-weapon of some sort? (one of our most infamous export products)

I like FN products, especially when they were partnered with John Browning (The Master) and produced alot of his designs. Currently I have a few fn guns and a few browning as well, plus I have alot of licensed built copies of fn/browning firearms. Not much better product to be had.

Originally Posted by JThiessen

I have a Savage 30-06 that was built in Belgium. It was one of thier lines that had a little fancier engraving and action in it.

Guns are like any other product. There are many different types of enthusiasts - collectors, sportsmen, defense, guys that learned everything they know on a playstation, and constitution owners (because its my right!).
To those that buy a 9mm pistol to defend their home - I say you haven't done much shooting and testing of your abilities to shoot under extenuating circumstances, and what a bullet does in with different materials. Paper targets at the gun range are NOT real life. If you really want to defend your home, and minimize potential risk to your family and neighbors, you'd have a shotgun under your bed, not something that is going to go through a couple walls and still have the ability to kill your daughter in the next room. Yes, a shotgun blast will go through two pieces of sheet rock, but it will only injure a person on the other side, not kill them. Plus I'd prefer to have the foot wide kill shot area rather than a 1/4 inch zone.....have you ever had the shakes when shooting? Makes it really hard to aim. How many of you will be calm if you actually had someone standing in your hallway? Anyone that says they will is a liar, and has probably never had their guns sights on something living.
The thought of protecting yourself with a gun is idealistic for 99% of people - it will NOT go down like it does in your head.

I am a collector and an informal target shooter. No hunting, and I mainly like to see all of the crazy and inventive mechanical actions available. Plus guns always go up in value, so they are a good solid investment.

Originally Posted by Unsullied_Spy

Gotta love gun threads, all the foreigners like to come in and act all self-righteous and pretend they know everything. It is a part of our history and culture and will continue to be as long as we value our freedom and safety, get over it!

I guess they just do not understand that there are alot of guns floating around this country, and it is easy for a criminal to arm themselves to commit a crime. A gun is a tool, but it is a powerful tool. I will say that is you look at the statistics, violent crime goes up massively when a country disarms its citizens... Just look at AU and the UK... The numbers are out there, and you would be surprised. I am not talking about just murders, but violent crime.

Someone once said an armed society is a polite society. Makes sense, you do not start carp with people if you think they are armed, especially if you are not. A gun is a great equalizer. A 90lb woman can defend herself against a 250lb rapist very well with a 38 snubbie, not as good with her hands (unless she happens to be some sort of black belt ninja chic). A gun is a tool, and it should be kept off people who will use it incorrectly. People who go to work and pay their taxes are not those people, yet they are the people who follow the laws, not the criminals. So gun laws are by and large a waste of time. I have guns cause I can ,and for defense, and cause I just like collecting them.

Originally Posted by Riko

woow, hold your horses cowboy :) I suppose you are refering to me with "all" foreigners?..(since I am the only non-American who posted in this thread)
But if you would read my post carefully, I was not judging, let alone be "self-righteous"
I actually was trying to understand it. I even thought it had to be something historical that is now part of the "American culture" if it is so deeply rooted.

So who am I to be self-righteous and tell a big nation like the USA what to do, right? :)

ow, maybe a wiser option: having no fire arm in the house in the first place = no risk at all of anybody getting shot...

Until someone comes into your house with a gun, then you are a bit lacking, and potentially dead...

If there were no guns we would be clubbing each other with sticks like we did in the good old days. Then the advantage would go to the person who was the strongest and quickest. You cannot change human nature. We get mad, we attack each other, we covert thy neighbors ass (hahahaha) and that is just how it is. Civilized society has no place for any item that can be used as a weapon. Pity that civilized society is only skin deep...

Maybe you do not have as much "scum" where you are than we do here in the US. I can definitely see a direct corolation (sp?) to IQ amount and lower violent crime. It may be hard for you to understand, but that is how it is over hear. I would not drive my car in some parts of New Orleans, and if I did my 9mm would be on my lap, my doors would be locked and I would think twice at stopping at red lights, especially at night.

When you find yourself in a gunfight with a cricket bat, you will come to the realization that you are at a huge disadvantage. The cricket bat extends your reach a few feet, most handguns are quite accurate to 50 feet with the worst shot behind the trigger. I can hit a coke can 100% of the time at 75 feet with my 40cal, and can usually follow it in the air shooting from the hip...

[Riko]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

I can definitely see a direct corolation (sp?) to IQ amount and lower violent crime.

if that's right, than Americans are stupid?... that is what you are saying ;)

[Bondonutz]

Originally Posted by Riko

if that's right, than Americans are stupid?... that is what you are saying ;)

Sorry to admit, but a large majority are pretty F-in Dumb or just lack a healthy dose of common sense. These are the folks whom add to our rep for the violence and crazy shiz you read in the news.

[shaunjohnson]

Originally Posted by redshift

"i kinda wanna move to America some day because of some of the unusual sports they have over there (big fan of hovercraft racing"

Alright, I need to clear this up once and for all. We do NOT all have hovercrafts in our garages, we do not take our hovercraft to Hover-Mart and do our shopping with hover carts.



Really tho, are you serious?

That's the oddest thing I may have ever heard... I did not realize Aussies think that's big over here!?

Unless NASCAR actually makes the leap into the 20th century and does something like that, I don't see it.......

well it's a lot bigger over there than it is here...granted it's prolly only a select few who actually do it anyway...hence why i referred to it as unusual.
same case here...no not EVERYONE owns sheep and wrestles crocs. that was like 3 guys who happened to get famous. sheep are good for the lazy person who dosent wanna mow the lawns though like us
heck...we have NOTHING here in comparison!!
lol...nascar..."oh look...another left hand tuuurrrrnnnnn" jk

[Riko]

no need to apologize bro!
As far as I can tell from the postings, you guys on the board do not seem te be like any of the gun nuts that show up in a Michael Moore or Louis Theroux docu :)

+ at least you have a sensible president now! And that is something to be proud of!;)

[JThiessen]

Originally Posted by Riko

+ at least you have a sensible president now! And that is something to be proud of!;)

I think the jury is definitely still out on this one....we may be applying to your gov't for financial aid in the next few years.

I'd agree with Linc's IQ statement. Getting a "piece" is a status symbol among some of our minority communities.

[Riko]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

I think the jury is definitely still out on this one....we may be applying to your gov't for financial aid in the next few years.

come again?...how come?

I must say to him, respect + a job very very well done in having the courage to actually implement health care for every single US citizen!
Health care is for the general public and so it is only normal that the general public finances that kind of system.

So I welcome you to the club of countries with a public health care system, at last ;)

[lincpimp]

Originally Posted by JThiessen

I think the jury is definitely still out on this one....we may be applying to your gov't for financial aid in the next few years.

I'd agree with Linc's IQ statement. Getting a "piece" is a status symbol among some of our minority communities.

I have a feeling the jury will never be "in"...

And yes, having a "gat" is a status symbol, especially to the various scum...

Originally Posted by Riko

come again?...how come?

I must say to him, respect + a job very very well done in having the courage to actually implement health care for every single US citizen!
Health care is for the general public and so it is only normal that the general public finances that kind of system.

So I welcome you to the club of countries with a public health care system, at last ;)

What you say is very true, however the US lacks the needed laws to keep this sort of thing fair to the people paying in (ie me). Too many people on welfare, illegal immigrants and also too many people who do not take care of themselves (smokers, fat bastards, drug addicts, etc). Not sure if i am interested paying for health care for people that I do not think are worth the air they breathe. I am a small business owner and the burden of paying for all of this crap falls on me and my peers. The health care system does need reform, but the proposed health care system does not benefit people like me, yet I am expected to cough up for it. Not really fair.

I can only imagine that you do not have the quantity of free loading scum in your country that we do... Maybe I should move there! But it sounds like I would have to finance the move by selling my gun collection... Catch 22 there!

[Riko]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

I have a feeling the jury will never be "in"...

And yes, having a "gat" is a status symbol, especially to the various scum...



What you say is very true, however the US lacks the needed laws to keep this sort of thing fair to the people paying in (ie me). Too many people on welfare, illegal immigrants and also too many people who do not take care of themselves (smokers, fat bastards, drug addicts, etc). Not sure if i am interested paying for health care for people that I do not think are worth the air they breathe. I am a small business owner and the burden of paying for all of this crap falls on me and my peers. The health care system does need reform, but the proposed health care system does not benefit people like me, yet I am expected to cough up for it. Not really fair.

I can only imagine that you do not have the quantity of free loading scum in your country that we do... Maybe I should move there! But it sounds like I would have to finance the move by selling my gun collection... Catch 22 there!

I must admit that what you say is also true, also here in Europe we are oposed to people who are abusing 'the system', of course.
Escpecially when I am talking about our unemployment benefit system. But talking about health care, everybody (in our eyes) has the right to be threated in a hospital and have medical help with the least expense.
In our system you do not even have to be national resident, every foreigner can just go or walk into a hospital and have the best medical care at no cost, if that person is in need of medical health care.
No papers no nothing.

We have our principles and for us Social Welfare is crucial in society, a society and system build on 1 think solidarity.
In fact social welfare is almost holy (and public health care is the most important elements of that social welfare).

We have put all cons and pro next to each other and in the end, the whole community is better of with a system that is build on "solidarity"
Its not like the government just decided one day to have such a system, no, the whole system (pension, unemplyoment, health, etc) came from private initiative begin 20th century late 19th century. And it has grown, and since the world wars our goverments have realized that they had to end all this injustice on these many areas, so they began to take initiatives and in time it all went government controlled organisations.
So another example of something that has grown historically and still works on till today.

Let me also say that there are very small majorities in european states that would like to build down the system (not completely, tha tis not accepted here), but let's say, these people are not so popular. Mostely ultra libiral parties (you could compare them with the Republican party)

I can imagine however that in a society like in the States where it is and always has been "each and everyone for his own", more individual minded (some would call it more selfish) it is hard to accept principles like solidarity.
But what I find worring in the States is that the so called Healt Care organisation and companies that should be involved with the health and wellbeing of the people, that they are only after money and profit and that Healthcare is subsidiary...It is no secret that the insurance companies in the States are/were based on profit, wich is criminal in the eyes of people who live in a social social welfare state...

Can you accept the fact that you have to pay a bunch of money for a small but needed operation, medicine etc etc etc.
In the English system for example you only pay 1 pond for any medicine you need, no matter what it is, if you have a proscription from the docter and you need a certain medicin or whatever you just pay 1 pound, no matter the product you need, no matter what your disease. That is because we think our health is so vital that no expense should be taken to secure our health...and that kind of thinking can only be subsidiated by a system were EVERYBODY makes a small contribution.
The idea of paying a lot of money for medicine, how small or big they may be, is just absurd in our eyes.


So you see, not all things controlled by the goverment have to be evil or communist, that is the misperception too many Americans have about a Welfare system, just look at Europe, are we communists? are we that poor? I didn't think so :)
And Obama knows this and wants to change things, wants to end that kind of injustice, but somehow, there are (pretty plenty) americans who think that any kind of social program or goverment regulation is a form of communism for god sake!
It is not only a change of system, but for many Americans a change of minds and opinions. That is his hardest task as president I think...changing a way of living that has been going on since the late 18th century.

Personally, I think health care is the best idea and system modern society has every invented!
And believe me if I tell you, Obama ain't no communist nor are his ideas ;)



ps: there are also political parties (the far right, some extremists some not so) that are making a program out of people (mostly foreigners, being muslims in the first place) who profit from our social welfare state (unemployment benefit, etc etc)
True for some of those people, but certainly not all of them.
So, also here we have issues :)

[lincpimp]

Keep in mind that the socialist views of the rest of the world is generally being paid for by America, as we have the largest amount of disposable income (maybe cause all of us selfish people are paying for our own health care) we have. We are the biggest "buyer" in the world... Just ask China (see how they are getting more capitalist), they know how to sell us stuff. Also take a look at how the UK was affected by the economic meltdown in the US... When we stop buying everyone else has to cough...

Nothing against socialism (well I do but that is just me) but when I go to a socialist country like the UK (where I am from) I can see the weight of the gov't pressing on the people and the general lack of money. Just my observation.

[Riko]

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Keep in mind that the socialist views of the rest of the world is generally being paid for by America, as we have the largest amount of disposable income (maybe cause all of us selfish people are paying for our own health care) we have. We are the biggest "buyer" in the world... Just ask China (see how they are getting more capitalist), they know how to sell us stuff. Also take a look at how the UK was affected by the economic meltdown in the US... When we stop buying everyone else has to cough...

Nothing against socialism (well I do but that is just me) but when I go to a socialist country like the UK (where I am from) I can see the weight of the gov't pressing on the people and the general lack of money. Just my observation.

I am personally also somebody that is not in favour for the one or the other.
My ideological preference is social oriented yess, but a general socialist run country is not ideal imo, for reasons you hint at.

A bit of socialism mixed with some libiral views, combining the best of 2 ideoligies is the best thing, I think. However that can sound a bit contradictory :)
(In belgium we had for about 10 years such a government: libirals + lefties (+ green) )

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Keep in mind that the socialist views of the rest of the world is generally being paid for by America, as we have the largest amount of disposable income (maybe cause all of us selfish people are paying for our own health care) we have. We are the biggest "buyer" in the world... Just ask China (see how they are getting more capitalist), they know how to sell us stuff. Also take a look at how the UK was affected by the economic meltdown in the US... When we stop buying everyone else has to cough...

okay, simply said the biggest economic power and (so far) no social welfare to match all that power..that is disturbing.
So, if I were an American with "european" vision, I would be thrilled by Obama's plans...:)

Ow and the main problem is the lack of government controll in the banking system in the US that caused the economic crisis with worldwide consequences.
US banks gave to much and to high credits to too many people who couldn't pay back their credits, that was the cause that started the whole thing.

All banks had assets and loans in other banks: US - European - Asian banks all connected to one another in some way.
It got bad in the US and the rest of the world had to pay the consequenses.

It was Reagan who had deregulated the control over the banks, and it is Obama again who is planning to put the banking world bank under strict controll.
Even in Europe, wich is already strictly controlled by the govermententities, they are going towards stricter regulations.

Originally Posted by lincpimp

Nothing against socialism (well I do but that is just me) but when I go to a socialist country like the UK (where I am from) I can see the weight of the gov't pressing on the people and the general lack of money. Just my observation.

hmm, isn't that almost a stereotipical narrowminded vision of the American tourist going outside his borders and making a arrogant remark?
That sounds like you actual believe that the UK has only poor people DUE to the social system that sucks out all the money and that the US is a country from wich the citizens only have benefits DUE to the lack of a system like in the UK?

please, how many people are in deep shit because of lack of a descent wellfare system?...
it doesn't take a degree in politics to see that the system in america causes a lot of dramatic situations. How many Americans don't have a healt care insurance? 30 million, or more?
And of the ones that do have one, wich of those insurance companies does actually help you out the way it should be I wonder :)


Like I already said, you guys have a history of "absolute freedom in every level" and introducing a system wich is based on solidarity and basically means 'to give money for the greater cause' is not something that will be accepted overnight.

PS: comparing the economic might of the UK with that of the US is not very wise since the UK is many times smaller and has 5 times less inhabitants...
If you would compare the US with the European Union, wich is a Economical Union (a collection of well organized social wellfare states vs the US) that is more like it.

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)
So, is our system that bad? or are some of you really that arrogant to deny the facts?